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Wtc Vs Cma - Why Not Have Both?


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Here we go.................


Trials Central is an abstract forum?  I beg to differ it is arguable the most respected and viewed trials forum out there in the English speaking world.


"We don't have a President only a Director".  What does that have to do with the price of eggs in Canada?  Does that mean due to not having a president of the WTC the WTC can't show us their plans for the growth of trials in Canada?


Then go hire a president!    


"Everybody works to help the family aspect of trials  at the lowest cost possible  - Nobody gets paid."  As does all the non WTC CMA trials members.


​Who keeps all the sign up funds at these trials?  If the WTC charge the same amount as a regular trial then there must be a little bit of profit.


If the Trial Central is site  "abstract" then why does the WTC use it to advertise the WTC events.  Fits your purpose when it suites the WTC does it not.


On keeping the silly confusing name of World Trials Canada. I would agree wholeheartedly,  the WTC name is a source of amusement even Michael had mentioned the name maybe up for change.     


What will happen when the CMA organize a world round in Canada how will the advertisement go for that I wonder.  I can see the heading now "The CMA has organized a World Trials round in Canada, caveat not to be confused with World Trials Canada".




Hate replies....    I think the discussions on this forum have been respectful tough questions that Michael and Bob have tried to answer respectfully and honestly in their limited WTC capacity.   Burying your head in the sand will do nothing for the growth of the Canadian Trials scene.  


Call them hate mails if you like WE call them "calling out the those who are driving a private agenda based upon a politic conflict of interest".


Do you really want to tarnish your trials legacy by acting like Harold Steptoe?


You should be building bridges not tearing them apart to suite your outdated private agenda.


I may not live in Canada currently  however I still keep in touch with trials riders in Canada and regardless of allegiance to WTC, CMA, or neither you and your myopic self serving politics are the common denominator in how things are disintegrated in Canada.   


Do us all a favour.........   Shut us up by acting like a Director and share with us the WTC plan for growing the sport in Canada, North America and globally.


You have a global forum on this prestigious site to do so.


The ball is in your court...




Edited by billyt
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And people wonder why the head of the CMA won't even visit the site - LOL !

Both Steve and Billy keep eluding to Dave's secret political agenda so maybe if they know what it is they could just spell it out for the rest of us. Reading between the lines it seems Steve was involved with the WTC originally to try and over throw the CMA... that was 4 or 5 years ago - get over it. It is possible that if the TAC fails with the CMA "maybe" it will be a renewed agenda item for the WTC - who knows.

Billy refers to Dave's legacy - It is a great one! it spans more years than most riders on here have been around. Pretty ****ty to call it into question on this prestigious forum. Dave actually writes a great blog every day that covers all aspects of trials and a fantastic source of what is going on in the sport of trials - free for all to read. He has also introduced a huge number of riders to our sport. I could go on but I am far from an expert on the subject. Pretty sure both Billy and Steve know Dave has done more for the sport than most and should learn to be more respectful.

I am still working on my response to who I am and why I think there needs to be 2 organizations... for what it is worth.

Edited by michael_t
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I don't usually enter into these types of discussions, but I have to register my feelings towards billyt's comments regarding Dave Rhodes' "myopic, self-serving politics".  I think that most will agree that Dave has probably done more for the sport of trials in Canada than pretty well everyone else combined.  He donates his own time and his own money generously towards the sport, and has built a truly enviable record of an ever-growing support for trials in Canada. The area where Dave operates (the BC Interior) always enjoys a very healthy entry for the area's trials, usually forty to fifty riders - sometimes more.  Compare that to Ontario, where, with a population of some 13 million people, they manage to get only a couple of dozen people out to their main trials. I don't think that either the CMA or the WTC is obligated to lay out any plans for trials growth just because somebody is posting a demand for it on this forum.  But I think that it's pretty obvious from the entries in the various trials in this country where the growth is taking place.  As for the FIM affiliation, that really has no meaning to Canadian riders, since very few Canadians have any interest in competing internationally. This year, there have been zero Canadians entered in to the North American Trials Championships.  For international experience, it's easy enough for a Canadian to join in a series such as the Pacific Northwest Trials Association series, and that does not require a membership of any particular organization.  Things are going just fine right now, with a growing participation in our sport, and people supporting (or not supporting) the national sanctioning body of their choice.


As a matter of interest, I think that it's rather obvious that the presence of two national bodies for trials in Canada has been extraordinarily healthy for the sport.  Prior to the WTC, our national championships had become little more than a couple of dozen guys in Ontario getting together for a ride, to decide which one of them got to call themselves "national Champion" for the next year.  The WTC changed all that with the amazingly successful national rounds in Ontario in 2009, and the equally successful rounds in Victoria the following year. And every year since then. This has made the CMA sit up and take note, encouraging them to try to equal the success of the WTC events.  Unfortunately, the CMA has never been able to quite match the WTC's success in these endeavours, but the competition has been very healthy.  Without the WTC, the CMA's national championships would probably continue to remain as small, lacklustre gatherings centred only in Ontario.


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I agree, this arguing between the groups does seem to be great for the sports growth. Another good reason to have both organizations.

Working for a phone company you would think I would promote the idea of a monopoly but in the long run I think most will agree a little competition is always healthy (as long as it is kept civil - we are all Canadians after all).

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Bob wrote and I quote


"As for the FIM affiliation, that really has no meaning to Canadian riders, since very few Canadians have any interest in competing internationally. This year, there have been zero Canadians entered in to the North American Trials Championships."


 The reality is three Canadian riders competed in the recent US Nationals.  And did rather well.   I will need to let them know that they where not there at all according to Bob.














Edited by billyt
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A few points of clarification should be made. 


I did see a comment suggesting that the directors of the CMA and WTC, need to be changed to get trials back on track.  Again I can not speak for the WTC, but I am a 3rd year director on the CMA board and on the Executive committee.  The CMA board has elections annually and if you are that unhappy with the current crop, or the crop in 2015, a simple nomination and vote, will correct that, or would have corrected that.  The process is democratic and transparent.  I have participated in every board and AGM meeting and Executive meeting, since my promotion to that committee in December of 2015.  Trials is being represented and is of the greatest interest to the entire CMA, board.  The TAC makes recommendations and submits reports of a regular basis, in which the board discusses and moves on, with the exception of rule changes, which are called for from the general membership and can be commented on, again for all board members to read and vote on.  We could use an active maritime Rep. on the board, if you know anyone Michael.  It would be a great way to affect the changes your community of riders desire, while ensuring the international bridge to the FIM for eastern Canada.


I did make comments of my reservations for a sanctioning body that is financed by industry.  That should not read sponsorship.  I love sponsorship.  I have actively courted sponsorship as a rider and still do as an event organizer.  The direction of sport should be controlled by the riders and organizers, for there is no sport without the riders and organizers.  If the future of trials is in the hand of Suzuki and BMW, what might that look like?  Both great brands, but not necessarily for trials in Canada.  Being a proper resident of Saskatchewan, home of the Greatest Canadian, Tommy Douglas, I encourage you all to youtube his Mouseland Speech.  If we are going to get political, we might as well go all the way and draw the comparisons.


Unfortunately when some of our old guard takes away the path to top level international competition, or fails to see our sport through the eyes of a 10 year old, we are failing the future.  Of course not everyone is going to make it to the FIM World Championships, but by eliminating the connection all together is surely not the answer.  It was mentioned how well all the fringe promoters/ governing bodies are doing in Canada.  Has anyone asked why we Canadian motorcycle riders have fallen so far behind internationally since they splintered?  We use to host world rounds every second year and be able to have a home entry of 6 - 8 Canadian riders, with ease.  Now we don't have the strength, or unity to host world rounds, or have riders capable of riding the "A" line.  When I was on my first trip to Europe to ride FIM World Trials, I would pick up papers and magazines weekly and read about the different FIM events going on at the same time and there were at least 2 other Canadians in various parts of Europe, doing what I was doing, in varying disciplines at the very same time.  Since our splintering we have steadily become less competitive at an international level, in all disciplines.  Sure in some disciplines riders can make money and never leave Canada, but should that be the goal of any sport?  It is great for a promoter, not great for sport. 


This of course is more geared to young riders and our sport 5, 10, 15 years from now.  Trials and the CMA can not work like an organization that is going to be exactly what you, or your club needs, if clubs and members are not participating fully in it.  We can't expect a Toni Bou to emerge in Canada, if we don't build a structure to nurture that rider, when he, or she discovers the sport.  If we just build a sport that is meant to satisfy the +35 crowd, it will soon be a sport for a +40 crowd.


The good news is that we don't have active promoters involved in trials yet and we are all organizing at a grassroots level, we are all volunteers, with trusted communities behind us.  We could easily be working on a common goal and have a nation wide unified sport, where lots of bikes are sold for our importers, the sportsman riders can enjoy riding well organized events, with their friends and children. Our young riders can have an eye on the Bou's and Raga's of the day and know their is a clear path to where they are. 


Lastly good luck to our national team in Isola 2000.  It is a fantastic honour for them and for us to be represented by such a great group of riders. 



Derek T

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That is great news Derek! I didn't realize you sat on the CMA board I have asked around locally who our CMA rep is but never got too far with it (didn't try that hard). I am very encouraged to hear that we have representation at that level and not just at the TAC level and sorry for not realizing it.

I heard from Jonathan yesterday that he was in France I didn't even know we were sending a team... I usually like to send the team some money to support their efforts... It may be a bit late now but if the CMA is accepting support for the riders please let me know.

I don't think the fact that more than one organization is putting on events in Canada "has" to be splintering (which is why I started this post). If you look at the Belanger family as an example they seemed to transition nicely from non-CMA events to CMA riding. If the kids of the 35 to 50 yr old crowd join into the sport because it is alive and kicking and then want to move into the CMA for higher level competition, I am not aware of any limitation that would stop them from doing it. If there is no Trials events at all in a kids local area I would see that as a much bigger problem for an aspiring rider to overcome.

My issue is I have to listen to the 45 to 60 yr old crowd that are actually riding and keep them happy and coming out to have any chance of growing the sport - All of our events are totally volunteer run and totally free for the riders. We are happy to take donations and we "encourage" a NSORRA yearly membership ($20) but we never turn anybody away. We have grown from 3 to almost 30 riders... If we continue to grow we may very well need a "CMA option" for some of our riders. This is why I have been working so hard with Marilynn to understand her organization... but for now our current riders do not see the value in it so it isn't something I can sell them on (or wish to force on them).

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I see on the CMA webpage the TdN team was announced back in July... I guess if I was a member I would have known that. Was it well advertised to the CMA members?

Derek is Marilynn correct when she says it is against the CMA policy to support out of country riders/events? - We really need to be doing more for these guys... Both Jonathan and the Belangers have visited us here in NS to help out the Trials scene - Great People !!! true ambassadors for the sport.

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Awesome to see familiar faces on the world Scene !!!


Getting back to the why have 2 organizations debate...


I actually wrote up a 2 page word document in response to people saying I am too new to Trials to know enough about it. I ended up not posting it as I really don't have any interest in being a politician.


However if you haven't guessed by now I am very passionate about motorcycles. I strongly feel they are an excellent form of fun exercise for youth and adults which is extremely important in todays society. I am not sure if people saw the results from the study that Nova Scotia funded York University to do which showed the health benefits of off road riding. We orchestrated this as Provincial Sport organizations will not fund motorized sport, however Health and Wellness does because it has been proved to be healthy exercise. My personal view is that Trials riding is hands down the best exercise with respect to off-road riding. Some might argue that you have to be in better shape for MX but you can't do MX in your back yard (unless you have a really big one)


To that end I am quick to jump to the defense of anybody who is willing to put on trials events in Canada. It annoys me to no end to see people being disrespectful to anybody putting on events. I have never met a trials rider I didn't like - but I am not one to stand by when I feel good people are being disrespectful to one another. We all have so much to offer and this sport needs all the help it can get.


As it has been pointed out nobody "needs" a Canadian Trials Association to simply put on a trials event. However my sense is the fact that the WTC exists gives just about anyone the ability and a certain level of confidence to put on an event. Insurance prices are prohibitive for anybody to put on a 4 or 5 person event on their own. I know some may feel there is no lack of trials events but from my perspective there are many areas of this country that if a person wanted to get into trials there would be few options for them but to start putting on their own events (the way I did). One example of this would be Tim in Pangnirtung Nunavut he has 3 trials bikes... if he ever decided to pull a few buddies together for an event he "could" use WTC insurance for free and all of a sudden a new group of riders will have started something (My guess is it would have limited growth as it is Pangnirtung Nunavut after all :)). Not sure if you know Tim but he had some good videos riding up a frozen waterfall. Same as Guy in New Brunswick he put on his second event this year and we had a great turnout (over 20) but he wouldn't have done it without insurance (We covered him under the NSORRA policy even though it was in NB... but the WTC policy is the same and would have been there if he needed it).  


If we hadn't started the NSORRA what where my other options starting out? whenever I talk to the CMA they tell me we don't fit into their mold as we are not competitive enough and too small. Not everyone has the ability to build a 900 person organization like the NSORRA so for those people I am happy to defend the existence of the WTC. So no I don't need the WTC just like I guess I don't really need the CMA but I am happy to defend both of their existence.


I should state that I see the WTC much more like the TAC . They are both small groups of volunteers working with next to no budget from their parent organizations MCC and the CMA. So please don't confuse my comments. Much of the frustration here in NS is around the CMA from a long history of overcharging  for nothing in return leading to the demise of organized motorcycle sport in the province... It has nothing to do with all the good things the TAC is doing today...   I am however frustrated that the TAC doesn't appear to be getting much funding from the CMA


Hope that helps explain where I am coming from.

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 "The area where Dave operates (the BC Interior) always enjoys a very healthy entry for the area's trials, usually forty to fifty riders - sometimes more.  Compare that to Ontario, where, with a population of some 13 million people, they manage to get only a couple of dozen people out to their main trials."



Not true, in Ontario the ATA events which are sanctioned by the CMA get about 25 riders. The SOVT not sanctioned by either the CMA or WTC get about 25 to 30 riders. Very few cross over riders. all toll around 50 very active riders. I would guess around 25 competitions a year in Ontario for riders to enjoy. Key item here is they are card caring, dues paying members of their respective organizations. If they joined together I could see 40 to 50 riders per event X 12 events. My personal opinion, and its only my opinion is they won't until the CMA makes some top substantial changes and shows a clean new approach.

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  • 2 weeks later...

it seems as though this whole cma vs wtc is a pointless debate. There is only ONE sanctioning body for national canadian trials, and that is the CMA whether anybody likes it or not. There is alot of opinions from varioust people in this country who have no clue about present day trials competition who are either A out of touch and not been involved in the sport much in years or who has never even been outside of there area or hometown. the WTC is a complete joke. As far as im concerned WTC stands for world trials competition, not some fantasy trials championship . The united states are light years ahead of us in trials because of this very reason and have ONE santioning body supporting there riders and national competition.

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Fortunately things are seldom how they may "seem" on an internet forum.

I have been supper busy with a lot of non-trials stuff for the past 4 weeks (work / life) ... Although we did manage to get out and setup 7 great sections for our Drive to Ride event which we had 15 people compete in 2 weekends ago here in NS.

There is some good email discussions on Canadian trials going on behind the scenes - sorry for the delay in getting back to people.

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