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dan williams

‘18 popping out of gear

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15 minutes ago, b40rt said:

Then you'll not be offended when I say you sound like a compete wancer. 

 ? Not in the least.  Especially since I have no idea what a wancer is......

I told you "my friends" get sick of hearing it.  Some faster than others.  ?

 

Edited by Sir Real Ed
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That’s ****** with a K to you. ?

... and really isn’t that what any forum is until the weather warms up again? ?

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4 minutes ago, dan williams said:

That’s ****** with a K to you. ?

... and really isn’t that what any forum is until the weather warms up again? ?

? thanks for explaining. Maybe you can help me ? Americans say "sold" with an "l" , yes ?  But solder turns into "soder"  Why ?

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1 hour ago, b40rt said:

? thanks for explaining. Maybe you can help me ? Americans say "sold" with an "l" , yes ?  But solder turns into "soder"  Why ?

The only time a Brit should ask a Yank to explain English to them is when they can't find a Aussie.

I used to work for a French owned company.  I told all the Europeans who came over here on long term assignment the same thing: "If you want to understand America, you should watch the movie My Cousin Vinny at least 3 times."

Edited by Sir Real Ed
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On 12/4/2018 at 5:07 AM, lineaway said:

 You have one guy talking about and two want to be`s chiming in. 

No, I'm not a "want to be". If I'm going to aspire to something other than myself, it certainly won't be "owner of a motorcycle that pop's out of gear".

"I have ridden about 40 events on my 2016 and it never has. I did miss a shift once this year!" 

Using your logic, if my bike won't start, and yours does, the problem doesn't exist.

 

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I’m old enough to admit American idiom is starting to escape even me. By solder you mean the melty metal for plumbing and circuit assembly? The only use I know of soder is a product name soderwick. Then again an online dictionary says soder is an archaic form of solder so maybe the pronunciation just stuck. All I really know is tin based solder sucks. Especially to rework.

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Without taking apart a whole pile of bikes to analyze the hardware it’s, at best, a guess. Slightly mis-machined parts can have a huge effect on operation of the shift mechanism. If you look at any of my past posts you can see I’m pretty quick to admit when I’ve got it wrong. I won’t say something actually works until it’s in my machine and proved itself by not failing in some spectacular way. It’s also why I post what I’m doing here. Gives you guys a chance to pee on it in case there’s some obvious thing I missed.

Engineering is the science of, “Whoa! Didn’t see that coming.”

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9 hours ago, dan williams said:

Without taking apart a whole pile of bikes to analyze the hardware it’s, at best, a guess. Slightly mis-machined parts can have a huge effect on operation of the shift mechanism........ 

Engineering is the science of, “Whoa! Didn’t see that coming.”

Well said Dan.  Improper manufacture of a proper design can function just as poorly as a p*** poor design.  The laws of physics don't give a damn about anyone's feelings.  Some of us like that.?

As a former co-worker noted "The best part of engineering is you get paid to tell people that 2 + 2 doesn't equal 5, and that 10 pounds of sh*t doesn't fit in a 5 pound bag."

Back to hardware.

MY 2018:

gear stopper cam is p/n 12.19101.000, gear stop lever is p/n 21.171.000

MY 2019:

gear stopper cam is p/n 12.19101.000 only for the 200, 125, 250, and 300 use p/n 007.05.007.00.00, strange to change that on only 3 bikes, no problem on the 200 with the MY 2018 part?  If the 125 was the same as the 200, I'd guess the higher torque of the 250 & 300 made it easier to jump out of gear with the old gear stopper cam, gear stop lever is still p/n 21.171.000 on all bikes for MY 2019

Edited by Sir Real Ed
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9 hours ago, thesolidman1 said:

No, I'm not a "want to be". If I'm going to aspire to something other than myself, it certainly won't be "owner of a motorcycle that pop's out of gear".

"I have ridden about 40 events on my 2016 and it never has. I did miss a shift once this year!" 

Using your logic, if my bike won't start, and yours does, the problem doesn't exist.

 

So what happened in 2013?

 Personally I think Dan will not find a solution. I think it`s all in the shifting and the way the clutch works (Or it is not working) is the issue. I think with the slight drag of the clutch it is not fully engaging. I have always paid great attention upon entering a section that my bike is fully engaged in gear. I will shift two or three times to make sure of this, especially  if there is a large up. I am not doubting the bikes are popping out of gear. But I think the problem lies on never being fully in gear, not which newer part is going to fix this. Just last Saturday I went to put the stock springs back in my bike (I have been running a lighter set I made). I realized I could just flip the top caps around to get a stiffer clutch as mine is so light you cannot tell where the free play ends. Sure enough, right away I could feel the difference in the lever and quite a bit of notchiness in the transmission. I imagine with the stock springs it would just be worse. I think the problem is clutch drag, not the shifter. Maybe need to experiment with clutch pack thickness.  

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Yeah that was Don Sweet’s suggestion but I still want the surety of moving neutral to somewhere it won’t interfere with section riding if it’s possible. I do think it’s funny after all that talk about no transmission or clutch issues you admit you had springs made and are just now realizing the stepped washers can be flipped to change preload.

By design the gear selector has a restoring force which indexes the drum. This means the mechanism is supposed to chase the drum into the proper position as the likelyhood of indexing the drum to exactly the correct position using just the lever is pretty small. This fits well with the idea that around the neutral half notch there is insufficient restoring force if the throw of the mechanism doesn’t rotate the drum into the full gear engagement. It also means that just tapping the shift lever or even an impact acting on the weight of the lever may be sufficient to pop the indexing cam to the neutral position.

I have noticed the majority of times the bike has popped into neutral has been after an impact or bounce on the suspension. I think the revised shift cam Beta now uses is to address the throw of the restoring force which is reduced by the too large bearing used for the indexing arm. The actual force and indexing location remain the same. What they should have done is made the notch deeper in first and second gear but the indexing pins don’t allow that modification.

In a few years we’ll all be on electric bikes anyway and this will be moot.

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 Yeah, I made the springs 2 years ago after I severed the tendon in my index finger. My finger is stronger now and I was going to put the stock springs back in to work my finger some more. I always knew about the adjustment, but while changing them out I decided one step at a time instead of jumping in head first.

 On another note I recall years ago there was a video showing adjustment shims available for the clutch. It was to take up the slack of the push rod. This was all in Japanese , but it was a Beta part number on the shims.

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On 1/3/2019 at 9:02 AM, dan williams said:

Yeah that was Don Sweet’s suggestion but I still want the surety of moving neutral to somewhere it won’t interfere with section riding if it’s possible. I do think it’s funny after all that talk about no transmission or clutch issues you admit you had springs made and are just now realizing the stepped washers can be flipped to change preload.

By design the gear selector has a restoring force which indexes the drum. This means the mechanism is supposed to chase the drum into the proper position as the likelyhood of indexing the drum to exactly the correct position using just the lever is pretty small. This fits well with the idea that around the neutral half notch there is insufficient restoring force if the throw of the mechanism doesn’t rotate the drum into the full gear engagement. It also means that just tapping the shift lever or even an impact acting on the weight of the lever may be sufficient to pop the indexing cam to the neutral position.

I have noticed the majority of times the bike has popped into neutral has been after an impact or bounce on the suspension. I think the revised shift cam Beta now uses is to address the throw of the restoring force which is reduced by the too large bearing used for the indexing arm. The actual force and indexing location remain the same. What they should have done is made the notch deeper in first and second gear but the indexing pins don’t allow that modification.

In a few years we’ll all be on electric bikes anyway and this will be moot.

Dan,

Have you made any progress in relocating neutral to between 4th and 5th?  Enquiring minds want to know!

Edited by Sir Real Ed

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On 1/28/2019 at 8:14 AM, Sir Real Ed said:

Dan,

Have you made any progress in relocating neutral to between 4th and 5th?  Enquiring minds want to know!

It's winter here (single digits F) and I don't have a heated garage so the short answer is no. Plus I screwed up the jig I had for drilling the extra holes when the chuck on my cheapo drill slipped. The drill bit bound in the hole and bent the drill bit ever so slightly which I didn't notice until after I drilled all the holes, reaming out the locating jig I made and pooching the spare indexing cam I bought. Made me step back and reassess the plan. Then real work intruded and I haven't got back to it yet. I do have a second jig but I've been considering taking a different tack. I've got most of a cam drawn up in eMachineshop and the cost to have custom cams made isn't too bad so I might just forgo the drilling and design my own cam with a custom profile. I'm leaning towards a steeper cam angle with a flat top. Like the older Japanese bikes where there is more resistance to the initial rotation but no resistance once up on top of the flat between gears. This would take a bit more effort to shift between gears but make it more positive once a gear is engaged. I think this is what gives them their "snicky" feel.  I'd also go much shallower on the neutral notch. Unfortunately with the cam sitting in a case well and having to fit under the clutch basket there's not a lot of room to play with dimensions. This is just the initial drawing so no modified profile or neutral notch. Or indexing holes.

cam3_1.jpg

Edited by dan williams

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On 2/3/2019 at 2:49 PM, dan williams said:

It's winter here (single digits F) and I don't have a heated garage so the short answer is no. Plus I screwed up the jig I had for drilling the extra holes when the chuck on my cheapo drill slipped. The drill bit bound in the hole and bent the drill bit ever so slightly which I didn't notice until after I drilled all the holes, reaming out the locating jig I made and pooching the spare indexing cam I bought. Made me step back and reassess the plan. Then real work intruded and I haven't got back to it yet. I do have a second jig but I've been considering taking a different tack. I've got most of a cam drawn up in eMachineshop and the cost to have custom cams made isn't too bad so I might just forgo the drilling and design my own cam with a custom profile. I'm leaning towards a steeper cam angle with a flat top. Like the older Japanese bikes where there is more resistance to the initial rotation but no resistance once up on top of the flat between gears. This would take a bit more effort to shift between gears but make it more positive once a gear is engaged. I think this is what gives them their "snicky" feel.  I'd also go much shallower on the neutral notch. Unfortunately with the cam sitting in a case well and having to fit under the clutch basket there's not a lot of room to play with dimensions. This is just the initial drawing so no modified profile or neutral notch. Or indexing holes.

cam3_1.jpg

Thanks for the update Dan.  With very little background info, I think I would have taken a lazy approach and experimented with taking a round file or Dremel tool to the first and second gear notches and deepened them a bit at the two points where the too big cam follower bearing touches the notch.  Problem is it would be tough to quantify and measure.  And probably very easy to make the first and second gear shifting a bit too "notchy."  I would have bought at least one spare cam first though, just in case.

Though your approach does seems like a lot more fun and more scientific.

Please keep us posted.  thanks.

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