Time Penalties

[bigwig]

I think that the time limit yesterday was fine. 5 1/2 hours should be enough time to complete the course. Even though I had time penalties. With regards to the rules changing, I think that it is good that they have changed. People keep on saying that they want another british World champ (not saying that Dougie's had his day) but if people do want another one then we have to help the younger riders as much as possible. I enjoy riding to the stop rules but as long as the British Championship is on the same rules as the world championship then surely this can only help our cause.

[woody]

There will always be contention with observing decisions whatever the rules. Personally I think there is more contention with FIM rules than with no stop because there are more of them. Riders aren't supposed to travel backwards are they? How many times do you see a bike move backwards relative to the section to gain a couple of feet whilst being jockeyed around, hopping front and back wheels. Technically it's a 5 but is never given. Same as when they weren't supposed to hop the front wheel sideways whilst not moving forwards but it happened and was 'allowed' without penalty under the guise of 'dynamic motion' whatever thet is...

But to get back to the thread, the observing rules or section time limit have no bearing on riders dallying around and being outside of the overall event time limit. This is nothing new, it's happened for decades, famously in the mid 70s at the British Experts when most of the entry was out of time for spending too much time hanging around waiting for others to scrub the sections in. They arrived at the final group out of time and were excluded. The sole reason for riders hanging back is because they don't want to ride sections that will improve with the weather, passage of other riders or both.

The only solution is to call riders to ride the sections by their rider number or award 10 for a non-attempt. I remember this happening at the Vic Brittain one year, early 80s, when the observer on section 1 had half the entry stacked up with no-one wanting to ride it first. Having had enough he started to call riders through or take the 10. It worked and got things moving. He took some abuse but was strong enough not to let it bother him. Not all are.

Employed in the BC, it's going to penalise some riders perhaps, but if seeded riders are last away it's not going to affect the final result and give any particular rider a regular advantage through riding numbers. Harsh on the lesser lights having to scrub sections on the first lap but it happens anyway. This way just eliminates the time problem. The rule already exists so why not use it. Introducing more rules for time percentiles per lap is just complicating things further and unecessary. It still won't stop them hanging back for as long as possible on the first lap.

[atomant]

Look guys, don’t take this thread down the route of which rules to ride.. The reason I started this thread is to find a way of addressing the issue of riders rushing to finish a trial due to time penalties increasing the risk of injury to themselves and to spectators/observers.

In reality, they bring it on themselves by taking so long to do the first lap (as said above). 5 1/2 hours IS plenty of time, its just the way its managed that needs improving... So a time limit on the first lap is a good solution or get the observers to give the rider a 10 for a non attempt when asked?

Or are there better ideas?

[adsy]

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with the current system.

5 1/2 hrs is plenty, yes Jack lost 14 time penalties, but that was because he had some problems.

Lets get a national event over and done with under normal circumstances i.e. not in a monsoon!!! before everyone wants to start changing rules/time limits.

Its the first one of the year, so all the riders will be dialled for the next one, and will manage the time better.

If they are going to go anywhere on the World/European Stage then they are going to have to learn how to do this anyway.

Everybody knows the World rounds are always tight on time.

Thats my ten Penneth

[telecat]

I did see Ben Morphett threatened with a 10 at a Mansfield Muan C&D National two years back. He wasn't picked out but did have an early start number and the field was bunching badly at the first section. Time is a strange and relative thing and some riders like to get on with it and others hang back. Just as a guide the last club trial started at 11:00 and we were the last away at 13:40. 10 sections 4 laps and 42 riders including the winner who's form considering he'd been away two years or so was more than a little good!! It's a different league for the top riders and perhaps the Consequences are different(to say the least).

Edited March 27, 2006 by Telecat

[as iow]

At last Saturdays C/D round most of the top lads took over an hour at first section, but everyone finished well inside the 5hr time limit.

That was 55 riders 3 laps of 12 sections,it seems that everyone takes thier time on the first lap and then just gets on with it.

Edited March 28, 2006 by AS iow

[john collins]

Some good points - but I will try not to divert off onto method of marking etc - remember this was only first round - and the weather rather complicated matters.

The overall time limit is worthy of debate - but I do feel our Trial on Sunday is not the best place to assess the situation - for in that sort of weather all sort of unexpected factors come into play - even the in between going (longer in ours than some others of course) was extremely wet and difficult and all this has a bearing on overall time.

I have to say I went to Section 1 on lap 1 - and there was some time wasted by some Experts - nothing new here - and they usually have no trouble making it up - but the conditions I am sure had a bearing - but I must also say that on my Section ( 9) some were very casual on lap 1 and may have paid a price - I do not really know.

It has always been a problem - us old gits will remember various methods used - I recall when riding the St David's myself decades ago - I had a thing called a " rotation" card which you handed the Observer when you arrived - and he called you in in that order - it was partly sucessful - but that was an age ago. I also recall another year being excluded from the St Davids Brit Champ - and even after claiming that Messers Lampkin, Rathmell etc had pushed in front of us mere mortals ( which was true) hence leaving us at back - and then late - my argument fell down - and I remained excluded as the Clerk of the Course had earlier seen my bike outside a pub on the route - and therefore he nor the club ( my own) had little sympathy ! - so the problems have always been there

In recent years - in Brit Champ - time has not been that big a problem - although I must say the inevitable rush around on the last lap has sometimes given concern. In World events there is 3.30 for first lap - with penalties if you exceed this.

We did look at this idea ( last year I think) but the conclusion was that at that time - it was not really necessary - but if time does become a problem - then we can look at it again. I have to say - you will still however get riders rushing on last lap - but possibly it helps get things moving initially.

In regard to the injured rider in a Section. Of course the injured rider must come first above all else. There is no need for question or debate on this. If a rider is injured - he ( or she) must take priority over all else.

If it dramatically makes a difference to the time of riders - the rules are already in place for Clerk of Course/Stewards to take account of this.

They would obviously have to properly consider then facts eg if there was a hold up of 10 mins - and say 20 riders sitting waiting - but at the end of the event time had been reasonably slack - and 19 had got in - there would probably be little sympathy for the 1 guy who lost time - as it may be a fair assumption that he had lost time elsewhere. Each case would have to be treated on the facts etc - but as I said the riders safety must come first - it is only a trial at the end of the day.

Incidentally I got into a lot of argument 2 years ago when in a European Championship Enduro - a rider came off in the test and broke his leg - and the next rider along( Swedish) stopped and pulled the machine off him etc - obviuosly then posting probably slowest test time of day. At the end - he was unable to claim any other time - and was very disgruntled ( rightly so)

So at least in Trials I think we usually get our priorities a little better.

[atomant]

John , thank you for taking the time to post some constructive and helpful comments. This problem, as you have said, has been around for a long time and didn’t just rear its head in this particular trial and the very fact that you will look at this is certainly a good thing in my eyes

As for the trial itself, I for one thought the trial was a big success and wouldn’t hesitate to go and watch another one of this type. It's certainly exciting from the spectator’s perspective. The 1 1/2 minute time allowance heightens the level of excitement which keeps you on the edge. Loved it

To all the people involved in making this happen

Also, big thanks to all the people who participated in this meaningful and well balanced discussion