old trials fanatic

Thanks Subira. I have spoken to Alan, going over tonite hopefully, not doing them yet he's too busy with hubs at the moment. Seems every man and his dog wants alloy hubs and he's snowed under. When i last mentioned it he was thinking about it but was concerned at the centre bearing and making sure the hardened steel outer race for the roller bearings would fit and stay fitted properly. That was the other reason i asked the question as i've seen bikes up for sale, hants off road and majesty moto, and a NEB clutch gets mentioned. I know most of the contributors to this site are into modern stuff but just wondered if anybody had any experience of alloy clutch baskets for the BSA as the spare engine i'm building up needs a new clutch and thought as i've got to replace it anyway might as well......... If Alan gets around to it, along with his current interest in Villiers electronic ignitions, fork mods, yokes, hubs etc etc i will let you know. Think i'll go out and buy a lathe as its a devil of a job to find anybody thats not snowed under with work at the moment and you just cant get anything done for weeks. Thanks for the response though.

Anybody know anything about alloy clutch baskets etc to fit BSA B40 ?? Seen one or two bikes advertised and they apparently have alloy clutches. Assume this is not just to save weight but as it is rotating mass will by reducing the amount of inertia enable the engine to "pick up" sharper ? Any of you guys had any experience ? is it a worthwhile mod? If so where can you get one?

Sorry. Congratulations on getting the Honda by the way. I remember watching it on e bay and wondering who it would go to. Glad it stayed in the country. Too many seem to be going overseas if the rumours i've been hearing are correct. Nice one i envy your collection.

Am i missing something here but i thought BJ wanted a 340 six speed ? Thats a Model 199B. Never rated the 125 or 175 Sherpas myself. I've got a 340 six speed but its not for sale even though the garage (shed) is getting a bit crowded with projects i wouldnt part with the old girl. Dont want to sell the bike either with appologies to she who must be obeyed (but not in the shed) Good luck with the search BJ and when people say they have an origional Commerford 340 six speed take it with a pinch of salt its probably just an old 199B 340 like mine. Still a great bike though.

Look i've got to tell somebody. Got bored in the shed to day waiting for bits to be machined to finish the B40 off. Cant bring myself to start stripping the Ossa Gripper (see other post) so finally got round to trying to start the Cota 349 i rebuilt last year. Dont know why but been putting off trying to get it to start after i rebuilt the engine. I suppose till you start it "done a great job, star mechanic!" then you try and either 1. it wont start or 2. starts makes a really nasty noise and stops abruptly. Well no excuses found some petrol in a can, smells alright (funny feel a lot happier now?) add a bit extra oil just in case. Thats good no petrol leaks. Kick, Kick, Kick brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrm IT STARTS YIPEEEEEE. Oh bugger its reving its nuts off and wont stop knew i should have wired that kill switch. Pull off plug cap OWWWWWWWWWWWWWW OOPS wrong throttle cable. Too short. Fit new throttle cable, dont know why i didnt do that in the first place. Try again Kick, Kick BRRRRRRRRRRRRr Ding, Ding, Ding, Brrrrrrrrr. He He I'm a star mechanic, Im a star mechanic. Rev Rev Rev. Err wheres the other end of the shed gone its all gone foggy. So now i've got to paint the thing. But at least it runs and no knocks or untoward noises. So guys Bultaco, Montesa No problem but OSSA ???? dont fancy all those shims bit technical, not very Spanish at all. Perhaps next year. Oh yes dont try this at home 1. go outside when starting a two stroke. 2. Use fresh fuel and dont just chuck some oil in to whatever you find lying around. What the hell gave the neighbour a laugh he thought i had suddenly got into steam traction engines. Cheeky Bugger.

Thanks guys. Will give the two web addresses a try. Thanks Conny. Bit nervous about buying abroad but if its the only way have to give it a go. I know i'm just a bit old fashioned. Well Woody thats a comprehensive bit of advice. Not too sure now if i should start pulling it apart or put it on e bay? Sounds a lot more complicated than the old sherpa. Still the Bultaco's are about as basic as you can get this side of a Villiers 37A and that is basic. Is anybody out there running a Gripper in trials? Most of the local guys are all running Bultaco or C15,B40 Cub. Seems that the only Spanish bike with any kind of spares resource is Bultaco via Dave Renham. So as for competition might have to stick with the 340 Sherpa. Seems a shame to leave the old Ossa to gather dust though.

For my sins i decided its about time i got the old Ossa back up and running. Its been sitting in the corner of the garage for the last 10 years while other projects have been soaking up funds (sound familiar?) Now i've never stripped an Ossa before. Plenty of Bultaco's and Montesa but not the Ossa. Anybody know of anything or any special tools i will need? also parts seem almost like the "Holy Grail" always promised but never actually there. One last cycle part i need is an origional airbox. I know i could get one fabricated but would like to restore to origional. Anybody got one holding the shed door open?? So any advice and or location of parts will be greatfully received. Jeff Bungay tries and is a really nice bloke but even he struggles with obtaining parts. Had a seat cover on order for nearly a year now. So Please, Please guys help me out if you can.

Hi You didnt say where you were located Bultaco but i use Eggleston bros in Derby or Better Metal Stores in Alfreton. Both will do small quantities. egglestones are good if you call and do a

Thanks for the list Mr D. Now i know i'm a senile old git but what are lever perches and how will reversing them be of benefit? Also what actually were the Commerford suspension mods? interesting list though. One last thing my 199B has a cable back brake, i know they all do, and i've never found a problem with it. Am i missing something? Once i had the drums back and front relined and skimmed to match the radius of the brake shoes (important that as a lot of shoes for older bikes currently available are not the same radius as the lining in the hub) both ends perform really well. will be looking to emulate some of your mods. Looking forward to the "electronic ignition" Dave Renham is promising. that should really be a benefit.

Yeah Mr Dabster here i am big hammer and mig welder at the ready. Lets have those mods you promised. Please

I just dont know and thats the problem. The current owner was refused an entry and he said it was because he had "Japanese" forks but anybody with a copy of Don Moreleys book Classic British two stroke trials bike could have seen they were MP forks as used by lots of Cottons, AJS, Sprite etc. OK they were not std issue on a cub but neither are concentric carbs and definately not Mikunis and at least the forks were available in 1964 so i personally dont see the problem. Its all down to the organisers and their interpretation of what is and what is not allowed. When is a replica frame a replica, i.e. the same as, and when is it a modified version of and by how much ? If you wanted to put a cub engine in a greeves frame and all the bits were from bikes made before 1965 then why not? but you can bet somebody would object. The bottom line is nobody really knows till you try. That just isnt good enough is it. We need a set of regs that apply to ALL events in the UK then you can build and or adjust your bike accordingly. It would be very interesting to find if your dads bike would be allowed an entry in the Scottish as there is no way they could argue that it was not pre 65 could they?. A lot of the people who are deeming things inelegable were not even born then never mind riding and their knowledge of the period seems vague to say the least. I'm not saying i am the oracle but as youve probably guessed it really annoys me when a bike thats in the true spirit of trials bikes of that era and follows the practice of the period, using anything that was available and could be made to fit, is deemed illegal and a bike that has modern bits hidden under period parts is let in. If nothing else it means the origional bits become extinct as they have all been snapped up and modified so stopping anybody from restoring a bike to true origionality should they so desire. You could ride your dads bike, or a replica of it, in events in some areas but not 10 miles down the road in another centre. Daft isnt it.

No i havent seen inside the engine of Micks James and my refererence was about the bike as a whole. Micks bike is no better or worse from an origonality point of view than any of the other top competitors and why not. My point is that i dont see any origional pre 65 bikes competing. They have all evolved and so they should have. If anybody wants to modify the internals, externals or any other part they they should have the freedom to do so and good luck to them. Thats precisely what we did in the 60's. My point, not that it means much, is i rode trials in the late 60's 1968 was my first event at Kniveton. I remember the way the bikes performed then. What they were capable of. How they sounded. Todays incarnations are a quantum leap ahead. As Woody said the origional idea of pre65 was to exclude the Bultacos which would have wiped the floor with the competition as they regularly did in the 60's. Nowadays the "British bikes" compete on equal terms and sometimes trounce the spanish contenders. Something must have changed and i dont see that much difference with the Bultaco, Montesa, Ossa bikes. So you tell me? I dont want to exclude modification i applaud it. I just dont agree with the masquerade of hiding modern internals in a period outer. Micks bike sounds one hell of a lot crisper, picks up quicker, turns and grips way beyond its 1965 incarnation. Thats neither good nor bad just progress. My "shot" was at the organisers of the Scottish who get "heavy" about some things but turn a blind eye to others. What difference does it make if your fork pinch bolts are inboard or outboard of the stantion? Who cares a toss if the brakes are not as they left the factory. I want a brake that works. That brakes! You said it yourself you could not afford the trick bits. Well if you were allowed to use freely available parts from a breakers then perhaps you could, only if you wanted to that is. The sport is getting away from the grass roots and that is not healthy. If what Vinned says is true then i applaud it and my Faber framed, B40 engined, PVL ignitioned, Bultaco forked "special" will be able to compete honestly and without cloaking devices. Mick Andrews has probably done more for the sport of trials than anybody else. The TY250 mono brought trials to the masses and the sport had never been as popular when the man in the street could buy a reliable competitive machine, ride it every weekend with little more than the occasional plug and tyre and be competitive. Mick modified my Ty250 well Alan did the machining i found out later but i have no gripe with him. What we need is a set of regs that apply to all trials the Scottish included. Perhaps we ought to start a forum here and decide for them? The ACU has been taking our money and doing naff all for long enough what do you think? Anyway as i said before good luck with your Cub and lets hope that things get more open and honest. And affordable.

well all i can say is good luck Steve and i hope you enjoy yourself. If your bike is as origional and std as you say just make sure you choose a dry trial otherwise you will spend most of it clearing mud out of the rear swing arm as if its not been widened you wont need any brakes. Perhaps you are right about trials being 99% rider, assuming that riders name is Lampkin or Raga or perhaps Andrews would be more appropriate in this case, but i cant agree on this one. The reason the bikes have all become so modified is they have had to. Folks havent spent small fortunes for tax reasons. At some trials you would be lucky to even get through the majourity of the sections without some of the "trick" mods. Trials is like that at all levels and i all fairness its one of the attractions of the sport. Putting a little bit of oneself into the bike is part of the fun. The problem with the mega trick mods is not just the cost but as Bultaco who started all this was asking "who is the guru". What is necessary, what is legal and where can you get those mods done. Where the expense comes in is hiding the mods so that they can not be seen. I truly hope you enjoy your Cub and theres no reason why you shouldnt. As for being competitive and winning events? Well if youre that good possibly but a tricked up "British" bike would make the job so much easier. Interesting posts though with some very constructive responses. Pre 65 or should i say Pre 75 is alive and well judgeing by the interest shown. Lets just make it a bit more honest and "what you see is what you get" and that will be better for all. Also cheeper and that must be better for all concerned. Let us all know how you went on. Youll probably be the only std Cub there.

I totally agree Subira. It would be nice if the bikes were more honest. At the end of the day as you say all the pre 65 bikes competing nowadays are in effect "specials" so why not be more honest. What you see is what you get. As long as its basically period i.e. no disc brakes no upside down forks etc and the frame is basically as were used at the time i.e. steel not alloy (except Greeves of course) then i dont honestly see the problem. After all they are all basically twinshocks with old British engines. And why not fit what are basically more reliable parts that work and are serviceable because you can get the parts. Bultaco forks for instance freely available from Bultaco UK or a breaker near you. Its the hipocracy that really gets to me. Both from the clubs and some of the riders and its pricing the class out of the reach of the normal clubman when it should be perfect for somebody to build and use a home brewed special at reasonable cost with running costs kept low. Surely thats what we should be aiming for? When a pre 65 bike costs more than a Raga replica or the new Montesa 4 stroke there's something wrong !!! Perhaps its this "Pre 65" thing? why 65? perhaps a cut off date of 1975 would be better then allow cycle parts from twinshocks and you have a workable formula that should be cheap for the rider and easier to understand and police. Just group them in with twinshocks.

OOH i did enjoy getting that off my chest.

Hi Youve just hit the nail on the head. Thats the biggest problem when building a "pre 65" bike. Eligibility. Youve got to decide what you want to do with it and where you intend to ride it. Then try to navigate the minefield of what is and what is not acceptable in which centre and with which club at what event. Let me give you a couple of examples. I sold my cub a while ago and met up with the current owner at a local event. He told me he had been refused an entry to the Scottish as the forks were Japanese !! Strange because i distinctly remember collecting them from Metal Profiles (DMW) in Birmingham. Now unless i took a wrong turning at Lichfield or they have sold off Birmingham to the land of the rising sun that makes them British and because i am an old git i remember having exactly the same forks in an old AJS in the 60's So what do you draw from that. Secondly, also on the subject of front forks, the B40 faber framed bike i am currently building has Bultaco forks (Betor) fited. This apparently makes it ineligible and very much a no no in some peoples eyes. However if i get Alan Whitton to do his usual job of hiding the internals in BSA outers. Hey Presto they are suddenly legal. Fork yokes seem to be ok wherever they come from as long as the pinch bolts are "inboard" of the stantions not out side of them??? What the hell has that got to do with things?? I know of at least one entry in this years Scottish who asked Alan to "just machine this brake plate to look like a British one as i'm off to the Scottish" Its a farce. In the 60's you grabbed anything you could get your hands on and made it fit. Honda 50 front hubs etc. Renolds 531 frames, wheels, tanks, brakes whatever. Dont even start me on Mick Andrews "Famous James" thats more 80's 90's and today than pre flippin 65. Not that i'm saying that the level of scrutineering is indirectly proportionate to the "fame" of the rider concerned. OOOh Noooo that would never do. Would it ??? Not that theres any history of that at the Scottish is there?? Dave Thorpe has a number of bikes to different specs depending on where he is riding and the ARMAC is by far the nicest. Expensive frame but beautifully executed in a way that the Faber can only dream of. You pays your money and you gets your goods i'm afraid. Dont even start on carbs. Mikuni, Monoblocks and Concentrics Mk1 & 2. Crazy. What we need is the ACU to lay down a specification as to whats eligible and whats not and the clubsbeing affiliated would then have to fall in line. Better than the present status quo but the "cheats" would still throw money at the bike and twist the rules as far as possible but thats motorsport at ALL levels. So the moral is try to find out what is and what is not eligable for where you want to ride BEFORE you build or buy a bike. Good luck believe me youll need it as i am still trying. It seems to depend who you ask and the current phase of the moon. If you really want a C15 then Alan has a genuine BSA C15T which will be eligable for the Scottish if you are interrested? My advice is dont bother with a twin as they are more trouble than they are worth, too wide, too heavy, too long, too complicated, too expensive to run and totally uncompetitive. Thats only an opinion though.

Hi Yes Howard is not the best at answering e mails but if you ring him he will be pleased to talk. I am building an B40 @ the moment using one of his frames (Faber) and am relatively pleased with it. Everything has a price and the frame is o.k. for the money. Just make sure you give it a good clean to get rid of all the flux or the paint wont stick. The trick i have found out with building a pre 65 is to find who supplies or does the work for the obvious guys. Faber make the frames that Miller sells. Well not quite true but near enough. Terry Weedy makes the air filter, silencer and kickstarts that Miller also sells. Alan Whitton supplies the electronic ignition that Rex Caunt and Miller sells. Surrey Cycles are possibly the best for Amal carbs. Its just a case of going to events and talking to people and getting to the source of the product and cutting out the middle man. Look at the bikes in the event ask the rider eventually you will get the names and numbers. Obviously some of the people are a bit cautious as Mr Miller et al seems to think the "free market" doesnt apply to him and he is known to throw a wobbler so they are careful who they sell direct to but you can save a fortune by going direct to the manufacturer or the importer. Oh yes and dont be fooled into thinking that Mr Serco does all his own stuff for the Cub and B40 boys either. I found out who does most of his work too funny enough its the same bloke who did most of the machining work for the TY250 mono Mick Andrews conversion that Mick sold. Been sworn to secrecy so dont ask for numbers just do what i said get talking to some riders especially at the bigger events. The British Bike bonanza the other weekend had all the players there you only had to ask? Its a funny old world isnt it

Dont wish to annoy Mr Dabster and i know i am new here but i was talking to one of the people who gave up a lot of their time to help with marking out hacking back undergowth etc. They tried their hardest to make an enjoyable event for the majourity of riders. He admitted the route marking had been disrupted or sabotaged by AN Other possibly the rambling fraternity resulting in many riders going OTL which was rectified. He said the main problem being the diversion around Widecombe to avoid riders going through the village and annoying tourists. All i really wanted to say was how would you feel if you ahd spent so much time putting something back into the sport only to have your efforts labelled ***** ?? I attended a trial recently where almost half the entry retired due to the severity of the trial being a bit over the top. A lot of the riders were complaining but i didnt remember any of them offering to set out the next one. If nobody put themselves out to set out courses and or observe then we would not have a sport. So lets be constructive. Criticise if you must but keep it constructive. Sorry i've gone on a bit but i just felt that ***** hardly fell under the guise of constructive and encourageing. Sorry if i have spoken out of turn here.

Well that comfirms it then as apart from the tank it looks the spitting image of mine. Still love the old girl to bits even if she is just a standard 340. So Mr D have you sorted that list of mods out yet?

Hi I've got a 340 too. Always had a soft spot for Bultacos. How do i tell if its been modified? Also dont mean to be thick but what is "plunger and three hole bracket modified" and how can i tell if it has been? The swing arm is sort of rectangular but with rounded edges does that mean its oval? Sorry but i saw a supposed Commerford Bultaco on e bay recently for sale and it was hard to tell but looked very similar to mine just the top mountings for the shocks seemed slightly more forward but didnt know if this was a Commerford mod or someone elses.

Dont know why, remember i'm too old to know anything about computers, but i can't access the awards link? Just wanted to see who had won what as last Sunday 9th entered my first trial for 20 yrs @ bracken rocks Derbys and boy oh boy seem to remember riding the same sections 20 years ago on a TY mono. Anyway some of the lads were saying they had entered the pre 65 Scottish and that was easier than Bracken rocks. Dont really beleive that but just wanted to see who won what. Couldnt be bothered to wade through the whole entry list. Any ideas why i cant access the awards?

I'm with you on that one Steve. One of the reason i havent gone out and bought a modern bike, goodness knows i would have probably been cheaper, is also that there wouldnt be anything of me in it. Well probably the odd skinned knuckle. Rebuilding a twinshock and modifying it IS a major part of the attraction. To me anyway. Along with the enjoyment, hopefully, when you ride. Like you i would feel under much more pressure, mostly from myself, to try to win which is not what i am looking for anymore. The reason i started this thread was i have found it almost impossible to find what exists in almost ALL other forms of motorsport a regulation or concise discription of what does and what does not constitute an elegible machine in this case a twinshock. Loads of differing classifications, almost as many as there are clubs. Some dont even allow plastic mudguards. It needs clarification as otherwise things will get out of hand and the chance to just have a relaxing ride without ending up bankrupt or off work injured will be gone. Just as it did in the 80's when i packed up trials. OK due to a lack of talent and the ability to hop skip and jump. Then again if i wanted to go trick cycling i would have bought a BMX bike. Some interesting comments coming though. Keep it up guys after all thats what a discussion forum is for after all.

To some extent i agree. It was just the discussion on "Which is the best twinshock" that made me think. In some respects its an arguement for a National regulation for what is a twinshock. This all came about because i decided, mistakenly probably will wait and see in two weeks time when i do my first event for 20 years, to take up trialling again and couldnt see myself hopping about and leaping up sheer rock faces. Ahh i thought twinshock or pre 65 thats for me. So whilst rebuilding an OSSA i found out the bits are like hens teeth, the Cota isnt much better so i bought a Bultaco based on the fact that Bultaco UK seemed to have a good range of bits. Then it dawned on me that believe it or not B40 stuff seems plentiful so here i am with a B40 in bits but getting there. But what bits do you fit and what dont you? Received a brochure from Majesty moto the other day and though the stuff looks great i started to think are disc brakes and

Hi One question, i know this might sound a bit daft, but what actually constitutes a "twinshock" ? Let me explain. Just look at the Cotswold Majesty for example or choose your own. Here is a bike which undeniably is a "twinshock" (it has two rear shock absorbers) but it was made this century. So are twinshocks anything with two rear shocks? Do they have to be manufacturered before a certain date? Must they be aircooled? When we say manufactured which bits do we actually mean? After all there are many aftermarket frame kits around. Some replicas of the originals, some of works frames, some just very light and tidy. You see where i am going with this is why couldnt you modify a TY250 mono and fit two rear shocks? or any other bike for that matter? I am currently building a B40 and have fitted an Otter frame from Faber marketing. I have some Bultaco forks in perfect nick so they are going in the front. The wheels are conical hub ones i think off an old SWM i used to have and they are fitted because they were in my garage were in good nick and were in effect free. So is this still a "twinshock"? Well i think so as all the bits came off a twinshock and in the late 60's and early 70's the bikes were modified with whatever came to hand that was lighter and better. I have tried to find out a ruling re pre 65 and thats almost impossible never mind a classification of a twinshock. It all seems to depend on the club. One club secretary commented "We dont really bother. As long as i looks like one thats good enough". OK but from how far away and what does a twinshock look like anyway? Early monoshock Yams, Fantics, Armstrongs etc etc are now cheap so what if you converted one ? Anybody tried it.

Hi dont know if any body interested but theres one for sale on e bay at the moment. In derbyshire. eh up me duck