sparks2

Hi Yes, all the British model 10s came with a red and silver fibre glass tank. The earlier ones were a more rounded shape, later ones were more angular and a bit stronger but all were red and silver. The side panels were alloy with bultaco/sammmy miller stickers. They looked a million dollars at the time when new, compared to the Sprites, Greeves, Dots and battered cubs. Regards Sparks2

Hi Yes, A 1965 or 1966 model 10, four speeder. Good luck with it. Regards Sparks2

Hi Ian I have just sent you a personal Message. Regards Sparks2

Hi Ian (and all readers) As far as I can remember the frame number was on the headstock. As to the engine number - I doubt anyone in the UK has any records, you may be able to search further afield - Austria for instance - but be prepared for a long search. As to the exact age of the Dalesman - I doubt now anyone has any records. Peter Edmondson may be the man to ask - though I think a request for any info will be met with complete disinterest. He left (or had to leave) the company shortly after this time. I have no contact details for PE. But examining the evidence i.e. Late type frame. Late ISDT type engine. REH yokes, REH front hub. My best guess would be 1971. My Dalesman came new in November 1970 with a Puch front hub and all Dalesmans I had seen up to that time had the Puch hub. So that would suggest a later date. And by 1972, the company was in trouble, so 1971 would be my guess. Kind Regards Sparks2

Hi I'm suprised that it is only 4 speed as it has the 6 speed flywheel cover and (I think) the six speed larger finned barrel. Ian, keep the rear wheel snail cams they are superior to the original bolt type. If I were you, I would just use modern day alloy rims as re-chroming rims is not really successful. I think the tank you have ordered from Millers will be the modern day Tiger Cub/universal alloy tank, slightly different from the Wassell tank but never the less perfectly acceptable. BJ - it would make sense that yours (built in 1969) was a four speeder as the first 6 speeders were not built until the latter half of 1970. Kind Regards Sparks2

Hi (again) Thanks for the input BJ. Sorry to contradict you but all the Puch road bike (M125) based Dalesmans were 4 speed. Some of the later ones had the Puch ISDT type engines and were six speed (still all 125cc). Although 4 and 6 speed versions were available at the same time, the six speeder cost a bit more. Greeves used a version of the Puch six speed ISDT type engine in the Pathfinder (in 175 form). BJ is correct about the rear wheel adjusters and rear hub. Your yokes are certainly not MP, if we assume BJ to be correct about them, then they are almost certainly REH and could well have been supplied with the bike. So the same could go for the front hub. How does a little old Dalesman produced in Otley find it's way to California? Ian, If I were you, I would not bother unduly about originality but just concentrate on building a practical little trials bike. Just hope that the engine, gearbox and electronic ignition are serviceable as replacements would be problematical. Though the engine looks externally good and does not look hacked about. And the engine had a reputation as unburstable and reliable (hence the ISDT tag). Everything else should be repairable, replaceable or be able to be reproduced. As we have seen and as I have tried to say earlier, the built spec and equipment could well have varied, bike to bike, as the bikes were being built, using up what was to hand. The Dalesman owned by BJ would have been a special build for the ISDT works effort, and as such, would have been built to a higher standard than the one day bikes built for the punters. Kind Regards Sparks2

Hi (In my opinion) You have one of the later 'six speeders'. I bought one new in 1970. Several mods have been carried out on the bike over the years. Frame colour on mine was black, though I have now no recollection of frame and engine numbers. You should note that Dalesman were only a very small producer (and probably strapped for cash) so the exact specification and equipment fitted could vary from bike to bike as they left the producer. I do not recognise the yokes. mine had MP S600 forks, your fork legs are correct for this fork. No prop stand was fitted, yours looks like a home made addition. Your exhaust is again home brewed (certainly the silencer is). The footrests are an after market type marketed by the accessory firm 'Wassell' in the 1970's and 1980's. Your carb is a Bing and may well be correct for this engine. Mine was fitted with a cheapskate Amal Mk1 (rubbish). Your front hub is probably an alloy conical replacement, could be REH, Rickman or BSA/Triumph, mine was a tiny Puch from a moped, these were very poor and used to break up in any case. The tank on mine was again from the Wassell people in alloy (a good tank). Interestingly these tanks were still available up to 7 or 8years ago from Millers or Surrey Cycles, marketed as a Tiger Cub tank or a general purpose trials tank (I am looking for one now for a Miller Bultaco I am building - if anyone has got one surplus to requirements). The fork sliders should be polished alloy (not black). The rear hub (a Puch item) looks correct and in good condition. Anyway, Good Luck with the Dalesman, any survivors deserve preservation. I will help in any way if I can. Kind Regards Sparks2

Hi Wayne - Thanks for your reply Regards Sparks2

Hi Thanks Wayne. Thats just what I mean. I also have a M198 primary drive with very little use, I shall dig it out next week and have a look at that. Have you any idea why the teeth should be truncated? Regards Sparks2

Hi again Swooshdave Just imagine you put a chainwheel (any chainwheel) in your lathe and the then turn off half the tooth depth - thus reducing the outer diameter. Has that made things any clearer. Regards Sparks2

Hi Swooshdave Yes i agree. But it's not an easy item to photograph as there is an outboard flywheel (solid with the sprocket) and then an inboard flywheel welded on after the sprocket was machined. So the teeth sit in there own dark little slot, flywheels solid to both sides. Regards Sparks

Hi Tim - Thanks for your reply - But I said ENGINE (ie primary drive sprocket) not gearbox (or final drive) sprocket. I'm well aware of the problems associated with final drive alignment. As you say, the predominant characteristic of all chainwheel wear is hooked teeth (as far as i am aware) but I can only repeat that my engine sprocket appears to have had it's outer diameter reduced. The only logical explanation I have is that it is just wear associated with the proximity of the primary chain tensioner however it is wear I have not seen the like of before. Regards Sparks2

Hi Sorry your last post makes no sense to me Regards Sparks2

Hi Bultaco Sherpa T M49 - Does anyone know if there is meant to be anything special about the teeth on the engine sprocket, or are all mine just worn? The teeth appear to be the normal involute form (as in any chainwheel) but with the outside diameter then reduced. Has the proximity of the chain tensioner anything to do with this? It may well be that mine are worn and I shall have to look at replacements. Thanks Sparks2

Hi I am not going to describe in detail how to assemble a Villiers box here. However the most significant tip is to assemble the box IN NEUTRAL with everthing sat on the outer cover (with the shafts pointing upwards). Then offer the main housing down onto this. With a few trial fits everything should then come together. Watch the clearance between the gears and the main housing (second gear clearance gives trouble sometimes). Hope this helps. Regards Sparks2

Thanks for the reply Colin. Very interesting. Yes, you are very probably correct with the reg MAU 113F Is Malcolm Barnes from Barnetby still a painter and decorator? Who was driving the Gaunt Suzuki to beat you into second place. Regards Sparks2

Hello Colin Well done with the Ossa restoration. It cannot have been the easiest bike to restore. I remember the original Ossa very well although I never rode one. Round here (West and South Yorkshire) they were very thin on the ground and the word on the street was that they were not the equal of a good Bultaco or the early Montesa. I believe Ted Brefitt rode at least 3 early Ossas with, I think, the following registration numbers:- WAU 113F With the Silver and yellow tank (as you say). RAU ???G Also with the Silver and yellow tank (probably transfered from the earlier bike). Some years ago I worked with a chap in the Ruston Gas Turbines Drawing Office (Lincoln) who owned and rode this bike in the early to mid seventies, although he did not sound particularly impressed with it. UAU 9H Ordinary Green and yellow tank. The suffix AU is a Nottingham registration, so presumably Ted picked the bikes up from Eric Houseley in Clay Cross and registered them back home in Nottingham? I remember a chap from the Barnsley/Sheffield area called Alan Dugdale buying one new from Eric Houseley although he never did particularly well on it. Alan Dugdale sold it to Mick Dickinson from Rotherham. Mick loved the bike and indeed gained Yorkshire Centre expert status on it but only after he had built and fitted his own frame. Alan Dugdale has long since left trials and went on to build his own house, I believe. Mick still rides an Ariel and Bantam, and very well I might add, with the Yorkshire Classic Club. Jim Swallow (the chap who restored Bill Wilkinsons 1969 Scottish winning Greeves) had a very dilapidated early Ossa in the back of his garage in the early nineties. But subsequently sold that, as well, to Bill Wilkinson. I cannot believe that Bill Wilkinson did anything with it. So could this be the your bike, Colin? Hope all this is of interest. Kind Regards Sparks2

Hi Colin Yes, in the main I would agree with the former contributers. No one is now manufacturing a big bore kit for the Villiers A series probably for the reasons stated by Woody. Maurice Brayford has a Moto-Cross Motors big bore conversion fitted to his James. But he used to work for John Burns at Moto-Cross Motors in Oldham so he should know what he is doing. I believe Peter and Derek Carson in Derbyshire have recently spent a lot of time trying to get a big bore kit to run properly and gave up on it, maybe Old Trials Fanatic knows more? With the normal 250 alloy conversions, don't forget, there is a significant weight advantage. I save 9lbs with my conversion compared to the CI Villiers barrel. The weight is fairlly high up on the bike so I believe the saving is significant. Regards Sparks2

Hi I think his name has been mentioned on here before in relation to Cheetah trials bikes. I think he was supported rider (by Bob Gollner). Regards Sparks2

Hi I might just be able to add something to this topic? Years ago, well, mid 1980's I built or re- built several of the C25, B25 and B40 family of engines. I found some fairly inacurrately made pattern parts in this area, namely the selector quadrant (camplate). When the crankcases were assembled the gear selection was 'iffy' - more I cannot remember. I ended up sending parts back to the supplier with an explanatory drawing. The supplier agreed with my analysis. Just check any pattern parts very carefully. Just because they look OK may not be enough Just a thought. Kind Regards Sparks2

]Hi I've read this topic with some interest as I purchased a new six-speed Puch Dalesman in November 1970. I had seen a good result from Ray Sayer riding a works prepared six-speed Dalesman in the Scott trial the previous month and was thus influenced. It has always been my understanding that the frames were indeed made by Jim Lee at Birstall Smithies, West Yorkshire. On my six-speeder the frame was well thought out and built, probably in mild steel and mig welded. At the time, mig welding was a relatively new process. My forks were lightweight MP S600 with Puch hubs To my recollection, most Dalemans were produced in the years 1969 to 1972, the Wassels were produced later - 1973 to Circa 1975, the Rival (by Sedge) later still - 1976. I cannot be certain that Jim Lee produced the Wassel frames but I would say that it was most likely as there are just too many similarities between the Daleman and Wassel. On my six-speeder the basic frame, as I have said, was good and the engine bulletproof however the same could not be said for the ancilliary parts. Shall I say that the rest gave the impression of being thrown together in a hurry. A brief list of what I mean - Inadequate steering head bearing arrangement (lost balls at every trial until converted to taper rollers). Inadequate front brake torque arm/stop - again worked loose in no time. Crude footrest arragement. Side panels that were held on by self tapping screws driven DIRECTLY into the frame tubing. There were probably others but time has dulled the pain. I know, I know, these are all faults that would be easily fixed by modern day pre-65 expertise and equiped workshop but these are things that as a 18/19 year old I did not readily have access to. BJ - I strongly suspect that any ISDT or Dalesmans with works connections were been built to a far higher standard, thus leaving the ordiniary punters to sort out the faults. Mine would not have lasted 1 day as supplied, let alone 6. Years later, I remember talking to Harry Wright (Terry Wright's father, Terry won the Isle of Man Two Day on a Dalesman) he recalled that it was only because he and/or Terry was a toolmaker that they could keep his Dalesman rolling. Interesting Fact (probably true) - again years later, talking to Mick Wilkinson, Mick told me that Pete Eddy sub-contracted the manufacture of many cycle parts to the workshops of Armley Prison in Leeds. Anyway, I soldiered on with my Dalesman for the best part of 3 years, so things can't have been that bad, before trading for a Montesa - what a relief. Something with real power and much more comfortable to ride. Hope all this is of interest to someone. Kind Regards Sparks2

Hi Everybody I'm after a Villiers folding kickstart (to clear the trials footrest). I am told the way to go is to graft a Gas Gas folding section onto the Villiers splined boss. Can anyone outline the procedure and specify the Gas Gas kickstart to use? Many Thanks. Regards Sparks2

Hi In reply to PeterB - The 1968 Sprite MK2 had no seat tube or tubes where you say. - They were built down to a price, you know. And because of this they were very prone to frame breakages. (Well, at least, when they were riden hard in their day). Now mainly riden by us grandads and have a much easier life. Kind Regards Sparks

Hi I think the bike is a 1968 MK2 Sprite. These were the last with the Villiers engines. The forks are REH, front and rear hubs are British Hub Company (as supplied when new) I think the steering head has been steepened for quicker steering (witness the slightly bend front down tubes). I think the ground clearance has been increased by some means and maybe longer rear units have been fitted. And a Greeves TFS/Anglian alloy barrel has been fitted. Of course the tank is later - but I am not certain where from. Originally it was fitted with a similar glass fibre one. Regards Sparks2

Hi again Thanks for your interest. The marking is on the left side of the tank and towards the front bottom as you sit on the bike. It is a definite shade of mid to pale green, Not in any way remotely blue or duck egg blue.