sparks2

Hi In my opinion it is a Marcelle scrambles barrell with a home (but well made) made inlet stub. The engine has been built with a 10E crankcases. Just the same as a 9E but with an upright cylinder. Do not take too much notice of the engine number. These were just on the inner chaincase and tend to get swopped between engines as spares and repairs become neccessary to any one engine. Hope this helps. Regards Sparks2

Hi Stinger Perhaps I am at risk of stating the obvious but:- All cota 247's were 5 speed All cota 247 frame numbers were prefixed 21M What do you mean by the block being stamped 69 ? Regards Sparks2

Hi Wayne Not that long ago I was looking at a Martin Lampkin M199 (Blue) Bultaco, probably his last from the factory and that looked fairly standard Bultaco material and electric welded. Over the years, aftermarket frames have been available and probably many one off's have been constructed by individual owners and probably a few by the factory. Regards Sparks2

Hi My M80 frame from October 1971 is mild steel for certain. In my opinion all standard Bultaco trials frames from Spain (from M10 to M199B) were mild steel and electric welded although the quality of the tubing did improve over the years. Go on, prove me wrong. Kind Regards Sparks2

Sorry My mistake. My post should have read Motor Cycle News dated 2nd December 1964. Even I must be getting confused by this 1964, no 1965, no 1964 etc etc debate. Now corrected. Regards Sparks2

Hi I have an original copy of Motor Cycle News dated 2nd December 1964 in front of me now. On the front page the main headline and following story reads as follows:- 'MILLER'S WINNERS' 'Exit the Ariel - Enter the Bultaco' Sammy Miller and his new Bultaco are winners first time out ! After a superb win at Saturday's British Experts Trial, when he rode his 500 Ariel for the last time, he won his first event on a 250 Bultaco on Sunday. Miller made a suprise appearance as a last minute entrant for a Kings Norton club trial in the Cotwolds. And despite being over-geared he beat his nearest rival, Mike Winwood (250 BSA) by 13 marks. "It's the greatest thing since sliced bread", he joked, full of enthusiasm for his ultra-light (205lbs) Spanish two-stroke. In Wales the previous day, Sammy Miller capped six glorious years with his famous Ariel, winning the Experts' Skefco Gold Cup for a third time by a margin of five marks. Runner-up was Gordon Adsett (250 Greeves). But Tony Davis, also a Greeves rider, put up the best show of the day, losing two marks fewer than Miller. Unfortunately, Davis was excluded for changing machines after the start. Ron Langston and his passenger Doug Cooper (500 Ariel) scored a third successive Experts sidecar win after a long duel with Ken and Des Kendall (500 Ariel Kenman) who they defeated by 8 marks. (Story ends) I bet everyone has forgotten about Tony Davis 'winning' then being excluded for changing machines. Is it too late for a 'Re-instate Tony Davis' campaign? Seriously though, I stand by my opinion that the M10 was not available to the public until April 1965. However, it probably then sold like hot cakes. Many of the early Bultacos I remember were 'C' registered (ie registered in 1965). Regards Sparks2

Hi I believe the M10 4 speed Sherpa was not generally available to the public until late March/April 1965. Some were ridden (including Reg May) in the 1965 Scottish 6 Days. The first production Montesa Cota 247 trials bikes were available to the public in August 1968. Kind Regards Sparks2

Hi I think the normal 3/4" Villiers kickstart will fit. But I have never had a Starmaker/stormer though. Regards Sparks2

Hi Yes, I remember John Orme and the Bantam. I rode against him in the Bemrose in 1973 or 1974. I asked Barrie Rodgers a few years ago if John was still OK, he said yes he had seen him recently in Derby. John made a comeback in pre-65 around 1988 on a very nice BSA C15 riding in the Midland Classic MCC trials, incredibly 22 years ago. John's very nice BSA C15 was subsequently bought and is still owned today, as far as I know, by Barrie Rodgers. I think Barrie rode it one year in the Scottish pre-65. Hope these snippets are of interest. Regards Sparks2

Hi 1966 for the Mk1 Amal concentric. Regards Sparks2

Well said Metisse Regards Sparks2

Hi Last time I asked, recently, no more alloy tanks from Surrey Cycles. I think the only 'off the self' items are from Millers or Terry Weedy. Try www.terryweedy.com. Regards Sparks2

Hi OTF Yes, your probably right. But wasn't the Moto-plat a points driven system? Wasn,t the Boyer a DC system with conventional generator and rectifier, capacitor etc etc. Yes, I know, there's always ways and means. But what was the point in Villiers developing their trials engine having just lost all their major customers and when the marketing and sales of the Spanish bikes was so strong. As you say, we shall never know. Just an interesting talking point, nevertheless. Regards Sparks2

Hi Can't disagree with Woody or OTF But Villiers would have been waiting a long time for electronic ignition. Electronic ignition as we know it today ie PVL has only been available comparitively recently. Regards Sparks2

Hi Jon Were the products of Spain that much better?. Well yes, but in my earlier post maybe I should have said better engineered and marketed. Bultaco had signed up Sammy Miller and Montesa had signed up Gordon Farley. These riders were almost guarenteed to win the important trials of the day and grab the headlines. Indeed it was a regular joke at the time that Gordon Farley always got his photograph in the comic. Wins, headlines and photographs spelt new bike sales then and probably now. Who did NVT sign to ride the new AJS - the Davis brothers - then only for a short time I think. The AJS also looked positively old fashion when compared to the sleek glassfibre bodywork of the Bultaco and Montesa so any marketing department would have had it's work cut out. Granted, the good looks were not always or usually matched by durability but then the new trials buyer is only looking one or two years hence -- not 40. Enough said. But do not be too hard on NVT, they must have put big money and resources into developing the AJS Stormer MX machines, which did prove to be a success and budgets only stretch so far. Kind Regards Another Old Trials Fanatic Sparks2

Hi BJ is correct, NVT wanted to market their own complete trials bike the AJS 37AT and ceased to supply the other small British manufacturers. The Villiers engine was already in trouble before this point however, outperformed by the better engineered Bultaco and Montesa products. The AJS 37AT, though well made and equiped, was a dismal commercial failure, it must have been obvious to the trials buying public that it was not the equal of the Bultaco or Montesa. A massive own goal for NVT at the time. To be fair though, the Stomer MX machines with the Starmaker engine proved successful and had a long product life. Faced with no market, their previous customers having adopted foreign engines, Villiers had no alternative but to cease production of the trials engine. I believe part of the Villiers factory at Marston Road, Wolverhampton was cleared and used for the assembly of the then new Norton Commando road bike. The product life of the remaining active Villiers trials engines was extended via an unlikely source:- In the early seventies the DMW concern from Dudley, West Midlands was given a government contract for the repair and supply of spares for the similar single cylinder Villiers engine fitted to the 3 wheel invalid cars, made some time previously by AC Cars, Invacar and others, then still numerous on Britain's roads. DMW was thus a handy source of spares for the remaining single cylinder Villiers engines and remained so well into the eighties and maybe beyond. I believe the DMW spares stock forms or formed the basis of the stock of the 2 major supplliers of Villiers spares today:- the present NVT company from Manchester and Villiers Services from the West Midlands. Ironically, the supply of spares for the Villiers trials engine is probably better today than it ever was. In my opinion the weakest point of the Villiers trials engine was it's overcomplicated and difficult to maintain (for the average punter anyway) flywheel magneto, a design which originated in the 1930's or perhaps even earlier. Again the the Femsa and Moto-plat magnetos of the Spanish machines were much better. Don't forget todays pre-65 Villiers engines will, almost universally, be running electronic ignition - a great improvement in reliability and perhaps performance. I hope this slightly fuller explaination is of interest and helps. Kind Regards Sparks2

Hi Yes, Thanks BJ for clearing this up. Now it all becomes clear. Don't forget it was me that first suggested that the bike could be Nigel's. Good to see the NG Dalesman again after all these years. It deserves an honourable restoration and further use My best regards to Nigel, Swampy, BJ and all concerned. Sparks2

Hi Just hang on a bit here BJ !!! I think you could be putting 2 and 2 together and making 5. Nigel and his father did buy a new Dalesman from Terry Silvester in March 1969, I know because in a small way I helped them assemble it. Nigel did not ride the Dalesman for long as he was riding a 170 Minarelli Cotton from late 1969/early 1970 onwards. That was soon followed by a 250 Bultaco model 49, eventually to be fitted with a Miller frame. I've known Nigel all his life and he has kept very stum about a middle name. Now if Nigel had bought this particular bike in about 1974 it was not his original one from 1969, as we have seen, that was first registered to a Mr Roberts. The 'action photos' you have seen will have been Nigel riding his original Dalesman in 1969. That incidentally was Nigel's second trials bike and his first new one, his first trials bike being a secondhand Greeves Anglian. In about 1974 the Dalesman would have been completely outmoded, outdated and completely unfasionable so I could only see Nigel, then a rising Yorkshire Centre expert, buying one for old times sake, not to ride competitively. Anyway, now the only definative answer will be to ask Nigel himself. Anyway I do enjoy 'discussing' old trials bikes and riders. We have not heard from Ian Ashdown, who originated this thread, I wonder how he is going on with his Dalesman. Kind Regards Sparks2

Hi Swampy Yes, there is a manual for the Puch motor, certainly for the 125/175 six speed motor, so you should find something for the 4 speeder which was produced in greater numbers and was in the Puch 125 road bike of course. Just keep trawling E-bay and something should turn up. Kind Regards Sparks2

Hi Swampy No, it's a different Nigel Greenwood, just a co-incidence I think. But I do know David Harrison from Thurstonland, a village just south of Huddersfield. And I know he had an early Dalesman round about 1973 and that he did a certain amount of restoration work on it at the time, indeed I can remember seeing it around the country lanes of south Huddersfield at the time. Small world eh! Kind Regards Sparks2

Hi That's interesting. Nigel Greenwood bought a Puch Dalesman from Terry Silvester's in Holmfirth in March 1969. Terry cannot have sold that many Dalesmans. If the bike is Nigel's, Nigel or his father Frank's name should be the next name in the log book after Terry Silvester, the supplying dealer. If the bike is Nigel's I know something of it's subsequent history. Kind Regards Sparks2

Hi Yes, very interesting, nice bike. But, I don't know how anyone can say for certain (without a frame number) that it is a TFS. The Greeves TE, TES and TFS were very similar machines that usually differed only in detail. Your hubs are TE. The forks would be a later addition for a TE, TES or TFS. The TE, TES and TFS being supplied with leading link forks. The alloy barrel is TES (or MDS). The alloy tank is a Wassell with additional brackets, not Greeves. The TFS had a cable operated rear brake. I think yours has the TE, TES rod operated system, and I cannot see any evidence for the cable brackets ever being on the bike. The bike does have what look like TFS footrest hangers, but I suspect these are a later DIY addition with Wassell folding footrests. Anyway, a good project, none the less. Good Luck with it. Kind Regards Sparks2 (a TFS owner)

Hi Yes, all 199b's (340) left the factory as six speeders, all 198b's (250) were five speeders. However, I believe some 199b's have subsequently been converted to 5 speeders when the six speed box gave trouble. I am told that the 5 speed box is stronger. So, perhaps this how some confusion has arisen. As ever, someone, in this case, Legs, has proven me wrong. Perhaps I should have said the vast majority of 199b's left the factory as six speeders and the vast majority of 198b's left as 5 speeders. However I still stand by my statement that some 199b's will have been converted to 5 speeds. Kind Regards Sparks2

Hi Your Sprite is a 1968 Sprite Mk2 produced from August 1967 until the Villiers engines ran out in early/mid 1968. Your engine has Mk32A castings and what I think is a Marcelle scrambles barrel from the early/mid sixties. The carb is a much more modern Mikuni. But the bike does have the original tank (sprayed silver, originally red) and the original REH forks and skimmed hubs. Kind Regards Sparks2

Hi I asked the same question for a villiers some time ago and got nill answers as well !! Regards Sparks2