copemech Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Hey Ham,I think you'll find that they are actually the the same person.....but the photos were taken at different times of the day!! Now.....where's my white stick gone to!!! Best of balance. Neo Wish i'd had thought of that little trick with the water while you were dicking about with yours, maybe a clear tube to the case vent to tell whether one is sucking or blowing would be the thing? Yet still in the case of Adam on the other thread, seems his was sucking from the other side! All yet, seems the black seals keep popping up, waiting for Jamie to find something here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Wish i'd had thought of that little trick with the water while you were dicking about with yours Hey Cope, There you go....underestimating the the WD again!! See my old Thread "Just Fixed One And Then What Happens" Page 5 Post #65 Best of balance. Neo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Hey Cope,There you go....underestimating the the WD again!! See my old Thread "Just Fixed One And Then What Happens" Page 5 Post #65 Best of balance. Neo "Lastly I put that yellow pipe on the oil breather, then into the little plastic container filled with soapy water....My theory here was that if the right hand seal was leaking the air would make it's way out via the oil breather and been seen in bubbles." Oh I see now what you were getting at. But I think the pressure test you did may have been a bit too harsh. As in 2K8's test when rinning, apparently the bubbles did show. The thing about seals is the actual sealing thing can be very delicate. Small changes in vacume or pressure can reveal a problem, where too much pressure in either direction can just make the seal better at its job. Thoughts being, sinse yours seemed to be sucking oil through the clutch side seal. Had we run a test to see if the tube would drawn water pressure up the tube while running, it may have shown something, who knows . There is actually a very simple test stand that can be made using a water level to measure inches of water pressure or vacume, being much more sensitive than any measure of inches of murcury. But back to basics, seems you did also confirm the BLACK seals coming out of yours if i recall correctly. Did you get any referance numbers off them? And the BIG question at hand, are we seeing a possible premature seal leakage issue with the black, supposed Nitrile seals, used alongside the "sealed " main bearings? That is my question? Adam suggests the factory is sending the black seals out to date! As RYP would not tend to vary on the part number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony27 Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 I don't think the seals are actually black. The ones that I fitted last month when I freshened up the motor were a dark grey, placed beside a nitrile seal the difference was easily noticed Your point about pressure helping seals work holds true, we've come across this when watertesting moulds using air rather than water. The higher pressure from the compressor forces o-rings outwards helping them to seal where the lower pressure from mains water supply doesn't giving leaks where things aren't perfect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham2 Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Just to add to the confusion,here is a pic of my bike's original viton? seal...in a blue/green colour???????????------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Just to add to the confusion,here is a pic of my bike's original viton? seal...in a blue/green colour??????????? Errr.....I'll show you confusion I was fixing my sons Scorpa 4Tricks yesterday (Lifan....Honda copy engine) and removed an identical colour, outer case, seal to that from the kick-start shaft. I just can't see those Chinese engine manufactures using viton on a kickstart seal. So if colour is anything to go by I'd bet your seal is not viton. Cope, I had another look at the seals that came off my Sherco 250. They are defiantly BLACK but they've gone a bit grey on the outside...from the heat I'd guess. Marking are TTO DO1.4 5 TC 25 40 7 Let us know what you uncover. Best of balance. Neo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 (edited) Errr.....I'll show you confusion I was fixing my sons Scorpa 4Tricks yesterday (Lifan....Honda copy engine) and removed an identical colour, outer case, seal to that from the kick-start shaft.I just can't see those Chinese engine manufactures using viton on a kickstart seal. So if colour is anything to go by I'd bet your seal is not viton. Cope, I had another look at the seals that came off my Sherco 250. They are defiantly BLACK but they've gone a bit grey on the outside...from the heat I'd guess. Marking are TTO DO1.4 5 TC 25 40 7 Let us know what you uncover. Best of balance. Neo Fu-- me! Right Here! TTO is in Tiawan, ok no problem, and a quick look on their compatability page reveals aan incompatability of NBR(nitrile) seals with WHAT? Fooking alcohol! I cannot even obtain fuel locally without WHAT, Fooking alcohol! Could find no specific referance to the composition of the given number, but this does raise even more question!!!!! Edited October 24, 2009 by copemech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 It's the same in Aus with Ethernol. Not mentions on the specs but I'd guess that Ethernol would have similar effects to Alcohol on the seals......What the hell are Sherco playing at At wholesale prices nitrile (as the main seals) must have saved Sherco all of $10!!! But an alternate theory might be that Sherco planned it this way.....know what I mean!!! I so glad I went out and bought my own seals Best of balance. Neo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 (edited) It's the same in Aus with Ethernol.Not mentions on the specs but I'd guess that Ethernol would have similar effects to Alcohol on the seals......What the hell are Sherco playing at At wholesale prices nitrile (as the main seals) must have saved Sherco all of $10!!! But an alternate theory might be that Sherco planned it this way.....know what I mean!!! I so glad I went out and bought my own seals Best of balance. Neo Ethanol or Methanol, it is ALL Alcohol(grain or wood based)! I cannot neccessarily blame the manufacturer of the bikes for what the *******s are lacing our fuel with at a current rate of up to 10% for standard fuels(not E-85/ at 85%) but standard fuel, what is called now E-10! Add the fact, your mix may vary! Best I can recall, nitrile seals have been used in many bikes for decades, yet this could be the end of that! Along with other problems that may yet develop from it, like in your car! How all this may effect your float needle, the floats themselves, other parts as the petcock are yet to be seen I am afraid. Edited October 25, 2009 by copemech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony27 Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Just had a replacement crankseal arrive to replace the temporary one I had fitted to the clutch side & its brown seems you can never be sure of what sherco will supply Next time I need to see our plastics & seal suppliers if I remember I'll give them the grey damaged(my fault) seal & see what they can tell me on composition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shercoman2k8 Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) Gonna whip the flywheel off, and the gear off tommorow and get the seals out, it will be interesting to see what they are, maybe later 08 bikes used a different type of seal due to lack of stock? Makes me wonder whats in the 09's. Get the new ones in hopefully, and the gear back on... clutch basket is off so i can take pictures to show you guys. There's certainly something been flying around in there, what... I dont yet know... its certainly not as small as the broken chunk. The rear of the clutch basket has a few dents in it, and the rivets stick quite far out. Could the previous owner caused this when dismantling the bike, or is there something a little more sinister causing these problems? We will find out in less than twelve hours. Edited October 28, 2009 by shercoman2k8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony27 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Put up as many photos as you can & it may give us a better idea as to what it was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shercoman2k8 Posted October 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Well... It's apart. Guess what? Black seals! Also a lot of crud behind the flywheel, cant of been sealed properly after whoever was in there last had it apart! Stator was filthy, but the coils were clean! No progress gear side... Still stuck on there... I've manafactured a puller for it though so should be off in a small while. You can see the casing damage here though. Should be back together and tested on monday evening, hopefully! Bike in its current state, just begging to be fixed and ridden! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) Bout time, you could have washed it! Get it done man! Are you getting the alcohol induced fuels as well? I seen no scribe marks on them shafts, so you have the holers I would guess. If nothing else, you might mark them for future ref! Edited October 29, 2009 by copemech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shercoman2k8 Posted October 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Hmmm, always looks dirtier in photo's... was given a wash an a scrub before stripping to avoid any contaminents getting in the engine. Must of missed some. Sorry it's taken so long, been working throughout the school holidays, will be onto it all tommorow, friday and the weekend. Yeah, our fuels are alcahol induced, some stations say there fuels are methanol free, turns out they use ethanol instead. Believe the only two local garages that sell 98 octane gas are laced with alacahol to some stupid amount, the stuff from esso, has water in it straight out the pump, beleive this is also due to the alcahol? I've got an alcahol meter for wine making and beer making, shall test the fuel from both garages with it, I know the stuff from esso is ec10! I can see pencil marks... not clear, but faint, will go over them with a scribe tommorow so they dont rub off! Got a torqued airgun anyways, perfect too! set to 70 ft/lbs neither nut would come undone, increase that to 75 and they came undone with a few shots of the gun, very accurate! Got the holders too, just so I can check torque settings after. Cheers for all the help so far! Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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