I just do mine up hand tight..feels like the bolt is bottoming out..... Has anybody else measured the amount of lift of the pressure plate for a full pull of the lever? Simple if you have a DTI (clock) I get 1.1 mm of lift and can't verify if this elementry thing to establish is good bad or indifferent.
Been runnimg for c.10 hours now with a 0-20w synthetic oil (total quartz). I can feel clutch disengaging better when revving the motor...as if oil is throwing out from centre of hub (as revs pick up) through the "weep" holes and between the plates... so am thinking more weep holes as in Martin H .'s facebook pics.. I did note that my as from new (2012) has radially drilled holes which line up with steel or driven plates; from memory one hole per plate c.2.5 mm dia. I had some driven plates lasered with oil grooves (bit like a brake disc) but the finish where they engage the hub was no better /maybe worse than std. so I bit the bullet made a milling jig and using a 2mm dia end mill remachined the whole thing with as good a finish as I could get (high revs carbide slow feed... any machining lay or marks, less than a few microns at least align perpendicular with the direction of slide on the hub)... put rads (0.08mm) on all sharp corners.. & lapped them flat this made a big difference as does a good beadblasting incidentally but clearly not practical for production method. In search of perfection now I'm going to try a std 15/30 oil (as is in my wifes..same bike) which works well from new with no mods. After that I may try drilling the hub to feed more oil twixt the plates but I need to buy (what a trials guy spending money!!!) new locking tab washer ..don't like to unfit...refit more than once. Went to classic bike trial last weekend and rode a few of them SWM Yam Fantic all c 25/30 years old and had better clutch than any Evo I've ridden..thats progress I suppose.
As some of the "heat" seems to have gone out of this forum ,I.ll risk justifying my idea to make the bikes the championship riders use are truly representative of what I as a buying customer will get.
What is wrong with wanting the bike you buy to be reliable and durable?
What is wrong with wanting the bike the competitors use to be the same as the riders sponsors want me to buy?
What better way to give these simple things a chance of being achieved than to control the bike specification.?
Lord knows how this could be implemented & controlled.
I have always thought that manufacturers and importers used championships to promote the relative merits of their products. I think much of the hyperbola regarding this rider or that is great for stimulating interest but it is not relevant to my decision making process when considering purchasing new bikes.
For me these criteria apply to any championship , I know I'm a bit of a purist but trials even today should represent some sort of testing of the machinery that is sold.
Until next week in Scotland I don't even know who is riding what... I don't really care either.
Looks like Breagh and I are now a minority of 2 regards trials testing the bikes (although I.m not mad about tyres being the only control); It seems telecat slapped me down with his usual metaphorical poke in the ribs. Fortunatly this is a forum for discussion , I can't see why the reliability of trials bikes shouldn't be part of the competitive process in a trials competition.
I wasted a precious year of my trials life trying to make one of these work.... normally I keep my mouth shut if I.ve nothing good to say but ......best suggestion is to get rid of it.
What is good or best is always going to be subjective...did you do the 3 day or 4 day in springtime?..it's all academic as Molino the main man is quite ill and that trial won't happen without him. I got talking to Janet (better Half) and it seems I 've had a senior moment reference fueling.... her recolection is that each lap is a fig 8 loop thus you can refuel every half lap , also regards water for drinking.... we find sticking to one/any brand of bottled water for the whole journey/holiday is safer for the digestion.. it's not that tap water is poison or anything like that ..it's just different in different places, A pair of plastic shower soes is a good idea to take,...she also remembers dust /air filter (s) being a servicing must... regards start time ..you get to choose in theory but it seems to go out of the window in practice; its not important unless you're the sort to get everything sorted in your mind/organisation..then you breeze into the parc ferme to find a hundred bikes queing up to start in front of you. As we don't worry about results we prefer to be first round but our riding mates soon turn that into last...sections are mostly grippy rock outcrops but as you know "sneaky" lines develop, awkward bits tend to dissapear.observers get less attentive etc etc as the day goes on, Its worth thinking about minding/catching each other with your riding mates on some of the sections as them rocks arn't very forgiving...best thing for non french speaking riders is that there is always somebody within earshot to help out if you're in trouble . I had the funniest veiwpoint last year with a Brit rider asking the observer if he could go back a bit more in english, the observer saying .if he goes back any more i'm gonna five him... the Brit thinking the answer was yea do what you like.. and so on later the observer saying the stupid rider understands nothing ..the Rider saying stupid observer said it was allright etc... quite funny for me but maybe not for those involved.
I'm going this year, first time I 'll have ridden outside the UK so looking forward to it.
Couple of my mates are doing S3 route, I'm doing S2.
apart from stop in Calais and stock up on drink any tips chewy ?
Patience you will need with so many riders and tricky sections all riden stop allowed (dont know what the regs specify!) S2 will be quite hard you can opt for one or two laps...two laps for 4 days will be physical ..so carry water and avoid too much wine at lunch stops.. try to speak the lingo if its only bonjour ..ca va..merci etc. Steel jerry cans in the trailor in good time each evening or morning.Lady at the village shop is english so be polite...humour oficials as they have very very very very long days. you must have working lights tooth protector.bar stop ends or good grips (no sharp edges) french rules re sac a dos (rucksacs) are water only you can wear it riding sections if tools /spares in it you must take it off little things like this wind up officials... generally you know the phrase when in Rome do as the Romans. Come and say hello to us we always up top near the shower block. We doing the 3 days of Ardeche again this year .it's a much better trial to ride. there is also a trial i'd like to do 3 days of Valtellina ..2 days of Ibiza also..if Aveyron ever gets to run again it's the best.
Re stating the obvious will not move this situation towards benifiting anybody. I would like to find a solution which benifits the bike buying punters. Dibs & Browny are quite capable of looking after thier own interests.
I just cant understand why the rules should make it nice for the boys, there are very few who can do stop allowed well/properly in any case. In this day and age when bikes seem to be made of tinsel and toffee the buying public want to know if the bike is any good,,, mega steps/sections.. minders..spare bikes...aftermarket parts... etc etc etc.. are all false glamour to me. The Scottish is the one event where I can get a good idea of how a bike stands up to being trialled. I note that those in the supply chain always manage a disclaimer along the lines of.... these trials bikes arn't made for this trial (even though its been around and popular for over 100 years) so do this and that which is fine. What I find unpalatable for example is the scenario of ..eg. Douggie Lampkins electrical problems (at Lagnaha t'other year) being a public demonstration of the situation dozens if not hundreds of bike buying customers have found themselves in.. yet STILL they go on fitting the same old crap components. As I'm getting a bit indirect with this explanation i'll stop ranting and make statements;
If Manufactures /supply chain feel a need to get involved in sales promotion by entering sponsored or paid riders into events..the riders should do as they're paid to do or find a job that suits them better.
the Events which are used by supply chain to promote thier goods should represent a test or trial of the machines.
We should all be mature enough to realise that a good rider can win on a crap bike and this is why they are coveted by supply chain.
Perhaps if they put on a series where crap riders on good bikes get results we could see some proper bike development in terms of reliability and use ability.
I may be playing the devils advocate here but a perspective /agenda other than prima donnas and circus shows needs to be considered.
i HAVE A TRAFFIC CREW CAB LWB 2 bikes dead easy 3 also works just need to be carefull with footrests snagging each other sort off thing. Only gripe re the LWB is that tit doesn't turn very well (manouvering ...its fine on the open road).
Leaving aside the debate regarding stop or not, why do we need a spectacle? Trials is a sport to be doing rather than watching. Watching trials isn't going to be like a rock concert or a cup tie..you need to appreciate trials skills and to do that you need to be or have been in the game. If a few guys can earn a living from promoting sales then good for them but they surely must leave the marketing strategy to thier paymasters. Personally I would rather they spend the money on better quality products. For a trial to be a trial by definition it should be a test of both rider and bike.. and be representative of what is being promoted.....why not formulate the bikes as in all parts to be standard production or tagged for the whole season with penalties for service repairs.
welcome to the club, I.ve even made up a set of steel/driven plates, but like you and others the problem persists, having tried all the fixes including lapping and beadblasting the driven plates..all the clutch fix mods,etc.etc..I noticed that the driver plates were only marking the basket on one side , so "clocked" the concentricity twixt hub & basket it was 0.5 mm out of concentricity. (should be irrelivant as all driver plates are "floating). found by fitting hub on different splines got it within 0.1mm. I tried a 0w 5 synthetic oil (Total) having spent 40 odd hours pratting about with it I find I can now select gears stationary when hot, no plates sticking,. I can also "feel" it into gear I think this is due to oil flying out from ctr of hub (my 2012 has holes drilled from inside to where the driven plates line up) by revving the engine just befor going for a gear... A lot of people say fit bigger (push) master cylinder to get better lift or seperation of the plates, It would be great if somebody could give a definitive lift figure (i get 1.1mm at the pressure plate for full pull of the lever) I have to say that £4.5 K for a trials bike with a clutch like this is pretty dire. What further confuses is that my wifes new 125 has a (cant say perfect) good working clutch not had the cover off one oil change 3 rides ago now running with 15W40 semi engine oil.
Horses for courses ..if you not wanting to jump up big steps (which the youngster do on them with super tecnique) they're fine for most of us ..little more prone to stalling.. minimal flywheel weight,....feel really light to ride. I.m 13 stone and can do wheelies/tricks on my missus's 125 better than I can on my 200.... rear tyre lasts longer... road tax & insurance cheaper too. your mates might take the p*ss untill you beat them on it.
Just had a look at the entry list, looks like we Brits are well represented gain...always fing a good name in the entries .. there it a Guy tits riding... makes me feel a whole lot better about my surname.are there any other over 60 's riding S3 or is it only me daft enough. I assume everybody knows about the barbecue meal in the village on (usually Sat night) not finest cuisine but organised by local traders with all proceeds to local (village and surrounds) charities.....has to be "politic " to partake..
Just a short story ; we had the man from the ministry arrive at one of our landowners with evidence of ruddy motorbikes wrecking nature ( there is a public right of way through his woods so you can speculate where the "complaint came from). Landowner invited in for cuppa to discuss.... went out into back yard... ministry man spot this flower growing like a weed in the garden... landowner says yes it's where I wash my my bike after ridimg in the wood....aha says man from ministry how many bikes go in there and then go home to wash them .?.. oh maybe 60 to a 100!....excellent says the man from the ministry....carry on with the good work.. Moral is that sometimes you can play their game and win.. it's always worth a go!. For me and many older trials folk appreciating the natural beuty is part of trials.. the last thing we want is to harm it.
new bike same problem so back to basics and dans clutch fix; Ralph say's it all " the plates are a mess from new". As I had time for a change had a good look at the whole thing and how it "works" or not as is invariably the case.
Basics such as amount of lift are not specified mine had 1.1 mm and no apparant hydraulic problems asked Beta Uk who avoided an answer so had to assume that was as good as it gets.
Plates Jamming.
A) Driven plates on the hub; part of Dans fix is to break sharp edges to avoid them "digging in" to the hub
Driver plates another of Dans remedies... tags bruise the basket and subsequently wont slide or dig in as above so smooth basket and break sharp edges on plates.
Both these parts of Dans Fix are the most effective thing to help the plates seperate when you pull the lever.
We then have to check the plates for flatness and surface condition.
Flatness / separation;.... If you have 7? driver and 5 driven plates and each one is 0.1mm out of flat with 1.1mm of lift you have a problem.
Surface finish of driven or steel plates ;... my problem with this years bike was plates sticking together. It looks like factory have made some effort to improve the clutch action, with oil weep or feed holes in the hub drilled to correspond with each driven plate..so they want oil to get into this area...it seems to me that once the oil is in it has nowhere else to go when the plates are together or in mesh. shot or bead blasting the friction area breaks up the surface and sorts the problem for a few weeks but once they're run into each other you're back to square one.
I did notice that the bruising on the basket on mine was eccentric...further investigation revealed that the hub & the basket were not concentric; fortunatly I was able to reposition the hub on assembly to ameliorate this... The clutch works well at the moment running with ATF... when it has run itself in I have some 0w 20 synthetic oil to try along with lighter springs to get a bit more sensitivity into the action. but am riding this weekends event with all std parts and the ATF.
It really is a painfull process to have to go through, but Dans observations put so eloquently by Ralph are true , all we can do is fettle as best we can to m try to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. I have another little project going on (see my facebook if you know me and are interested) but that will be subject to a lot of testing. As you can see there are a lot of variables in this assembly.
I've been having the same problems Neil; the problem appears to me to be that the driven or steel plates are pressed or stamped out which deforms the flatness of the plate, As well as spending a lot of money on a new bike I.ve just spent all morning lapping them flat,.. it appears to have been worth it as I can select all gears stationary ..even neutral. However for a "radical test" I've also designed a plate with "oil grooves" and a wavy edge bit like brake discs.. having them laser cut and will probably need lapping. I think flat is essential then surface finish needs to be be looked at. It seems this is a typical Italian engineering problem in that IF all the component parts are perfect then the clutch will work perfectly..but they seem to have no idea or care of what tolerences are for. I can understand the shim idea as it takes up any tolerence issues re slave cylinder/ pushrod to the bit it has to lift as it is important to maximise the lift afforded by the master cylinder.. particularly if the plates arn't flat!. I WILL SORT THIS
Hot glue gun as above also been practicing with plastic welding kit (hot air) with which you can carefully remelt the OEM hot glue ..maybe a good hair drter would achieve same result?
It's high time Beta made a 2 part rear mudguard assembly maybe like Gas Gas
We all want to do things that we can't.. how boring it would be if one could just do it all ( a la Tony Bou?) enjoy the journey because the destination is not allways all it's made out to be.
Driver plates another of Dans remedies... tags bruise the basket and subsequently wont slide or dig in as above so smooth basket and break sharp edges on plates.
The Beta Clutch Fix
in Beta
Posted · Edited by chewy
I just do mine up hand tight..feels like the bolt is bottoming out..... Has anybody else measured the amount of lift of the pressure plate for a full pull of the lever? Simple if you have a DTI (clock) I get 1.1 mm of lift and can't verify if this elementry thing to establish is good bad or indifferent.
Been runnimg for c.10 hours now with a 0-20w synthetic oil (total quartz). I can feel clutch disengaging better when revving the motor...as if oil is throwing out from centre of hub (as revs pick up) through the "weep" holes and between the plates... so am thinking more weep holes as in Martin H .'s facebook pics.. I did note that my as from new (2012) has radially drilled holes which line up with steel or driven plates; from memory one hole per plate c.2.5 mm dia. I had some driven plates lasered with oil grooves (bit like a brake disc) but the finish where they engage the hub was no better /maybe worse than std. so I bit the bullet made a milling jig and using a 2mm dia end mill remachined the whole thing with as good a finish as I could get (high revs carbide slow feed... any machining lay or marks, less than a few microns at least align perpendicular with the direction of slide on the hub)... put rads (0.08mm) on all sharp corners.. & lapped them flat this made a big difference as does a good beadblasting incidentally but clearly not practical for production method. In search of perfection now I'm going to try a std 15/30 oil (as is in my wifes..same bike) which works well from new with no mods. After that I may try drilling the hub to feed more oil twixt the plates but I need to buy (what a trials guy spending money!!!) new locking tab washer ..don't like to unfit...refit more than once. Went to classic bike trial last weekend and rode a few of them SWM Yam Fantic all c 25/30 years old and had better clutch than any Evo I've ridden..thats progress I suppose.