chader Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 (edited) There is no need to have hop/non-hop classes. Hopping is a more advanced skill and should only be required in sections ridden by more capable riders. Here is an example of how the classes and sections are described under our rules. -------------------- Novice - for first time riders being introduced to formal trials competition. Sections are essentially a difficult trail, with wide turns, no steps, and lots of recovery room. An experienced rider should be able to clean a section sitting down in second gear with no clutch work. Amateur - riders that understand the sport and are developing their basic skills. An experienced rider should be able to clean a section standing on the pegs, in second gear with no clutch work. Intermediate - riders who have a good start on their skill development. Sections include tighter turns, small steps and recovery time between obstacles. Advance - riders who have a good development of their skills and are a competent competitor. Sections should be technically difficult, with bigger steps. Multiple obstacles close together are allowed, although footing support needs to be on both sides of the bike. Hopping should not be required, but would be helpful. Expert - riders who don't want to compete at the pro level and have advanced out of the advance class. Sections are the same difficult as NATC support class sections. Sections should not be dangerous to man or machine. A spotter should not be needed. Pro-experienced - consistent and extremely competent rider. Sections should be equivalent level to NATC Pro/Championship/Expert levels. Large obstacles, very tight turns, and hopping are a must. Sections should not be dangerous to man or machine. -------------------- You simply set the sections to provide for the appropriate style of riding to match the ability of the class. And contrary to the thoughts of some of the Viagra popping fogies in this thread, stopping and hopping is not about showing off. It allows a person to approach obstacles in a way that might not be possible otherwise. The only thing that matters is the specific rules and that the section is set with those in mind. And before the trials gestapo think I am promoting this for YOUR RULES, no. It works for us and your mileage may vary. -------------------- @ Old Trials Fartastic We have plenty of irony on this side of the pond. Too bad you have the wrong idea about what it means. Here are two definitions for your enlightenment. 1) The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning. 2) An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning. It is closely related to sarcasm. Your last statement that you claim is irony, "Thank god for the Atlantic." implies that you are happy that we have a large separation. I definitely agree with you, but the literal words and your sentiment match and therefore are NOT IRONY. Correct Examples: Saying "Nice weather!" when it is raining or "Marriage is the leading cause of divorce." or, more relevant to our discussion, "I wish we weren't so far apart so we could spend more time together." That's OK though. I know the Bengay fumes and Rogain must be affecting your noggin. I actually enjoy a rousing discussion. It's great to know that I can say anything I want as long as I add a few smiles just to keep it light. Edited February 22, 2007 by Chader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chader Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 (edited) How 'bout we quit the bitchin' and mud slingin' and shift the topic? What is trials to you, and why do you ride? Trial for me is about overcoming challenges. I love the feeling of climbing or riding difficult obstacles. Especially when you have to work for days or even years to ride a specific line clean. I like comps because of the social aspect. And it is good to be pushed by better riders. I can also learn faster when watching someone do a technique that I havenlt learned yet. But most of my riding is solo and just about what I can ride. Personal challenges are the most rewarding for me. Edited February 22, 2007 by Chader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 "I know the Bengay fumes and Rogain must be affecting your noggin" What? Nice to know your English lessons are proving worthwhile. Keep practising Do you really have all that guff about classes at your Trials? Whatever. All getting BORING and personal which is not what this board and forum should be about. Sincerely i do hope you all over there enjoy whatever it is you do on your bikes. Only time will tell which techniques are the more appropriate to the continuation of Trials as a sport on this side of the pond. Not really bothered about the US as theyve done enough damage around the world as it is. Duck lads or stand with the enemy, probably safer, there may be friendly fire from the septics again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the addict Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 You might need one of these OTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chader Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 (edited) "I know the Bengay fumes and Rogain must be affecting your noggin"What? FYI: Old farts with sore muscles use Bengay for releif and guys starting to bald use Rogain to regrow hair. And noggin is slang for head. All of which fit the lame stereotype of an older guy. The joke is that those are imparing your judgement. I just decided to play to stereotypes just like you did to Jack and I. Fun isn't it?! Do you really have all that guff about classes at your Trials? Like you guys just grab a role of tape and toss it into the air, RIGHT. You make choices as to what a rider has to ride over. And you set markers to direct classes over the appropriate obstacles for their skill level. It's not to hard if you can walk and chew gum at the same time. Whatever. All getting BORING and personal which is not what this board and forum should be about. You are the one who started the personal attacks. (Bloody kids, Hair gel, Hopping to show off, insulting my riding ability, etc.) I just decided to follow your lead to prove a damn point. If you care to have a real discussion, have some respect and don't start that sh_t in the first place. Edited February 22, 2007 by Chader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 How 'bout we quit the bitchin' and mud slingin' and shift the topic?What is trials to you, and why do you ride? Trial for me is about overcoming challenges. I love the feeling of climbing or riding difficult obstacles. Especially when you have to work for days or even years to ride a specific line clean. I like comps because of the social aspect. And it is good to be pushed by better riders. I can also learn faster when watching someone do a technique that I havenlt learned yet. But most of my riding is solo and just about what I can ride. Personal challenges are the most rewarding for me. Peace, but still keeping me tin hat on, agreed? Trials for me start with the motor cycle. Building the bike to suit my ideas and observations. Making the components in the workshop. Trying them out and modifying them till they perform to a standard that i require. Trials is about precision and form over function. Flowing serenely over the terrain. Dynamic balance, reflexes, reactions and the emotion of motion. Competing with and against other riders not just in the section but in the workshop. Winning on a bike that i did not just buy but built. Time, blood, sweat and many many tears. Riding on my own and practising have little or no attraction to me. It's just buggering about. Thats also why i only compete in Classic Trials now as the camraderie and good natured "banter" is just not there is modern trials. Been riding in competitions now for near on 40 years won a few lost more but thats not the point. Gave up for a few years in the 80's when sections got daft. Kickstart was IMHO the worst thing ever to happen to Trials in the UK. Why do i get on my high horse and have a rant when the hop and bop mob start? Well somebody has got to stand up for the spirit of Motor Cycle Trials. I have seen the sections get made dafter and dafter by organisers in futile attempts to appease and appeal to the "new" riders only to find they alienate the core of riders who were making the event financially and socially viable. Sooner or later someone is going to get killed and the backlash from the moral majority will kill the sport as we know it dead. Health & Safety are sooner than you think going to have a field day and we will all suffer as a result. Those trick riders inevetably cleared off after a few years to find a new "sport" for their adrenaline rush. While they were there they rarely put anything back into the sport invariably spent as much time argueing with and allienating observers and generally being a pain in the collective a***. Trials is a great form of motor sport. Can be enjoyied in a relative cheap way, compared to road racing and moto cross anyway, teaches you a lot about yourself, "first we learn to ride then we ride to learn", and is good excersise getting you out into the country and fresh air. The time spent in queues breathing foul two stroke fumes sort of negates this. On balance though a thoroughly posative persuit. The obsession with ever bigger steps and hazards is causing problems with suitable land availablity. Observers are few and far between sometimes because they are fed up with being abused. The hip and bop merchants just seem to want to turn up and bounce around the car park, the event is almost a hinderance, then clear off home asap. I find all this quite sad and fear as such for the future of a sport that has given so much to me over the years and over those years and for the forseeable future i hope i will continue paying back in and taking out. What is Trials ??? It's a mindset, a way of life, a religion and i'm proud to be a part of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cg125 Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 I'm sorry to say that argument is fundamentaly flawed. If hopping etc is part of the sport, then it stands to reason that if hopping etc is against the rules, then it's not part of the sport. Are indoor trials run to different rules to outdoor trials? Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question, but I am a clueless n00b after all! Are indoor trials looked down upon by traditional trials riders? After all, there seems to be a lot of big steps and hopping involved. Is it effectively a different sport entirely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chader Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 (edited) Peace, but still keeping me tin hat on, agreed? Agreed *handshake* I like hearing about the origin of moto especially since I am new this this form of trials. I see your points about the move towards the hopping style. I actually like a smoothe rolling style too. A bike rider came up with a similar technique that focused on eliminating setup and recovery hops. He wanted all movement to be positive to attaining the final goal of completing a tough line. To that end, I appreciate the way the no-stop rule would lead a person to ride. Thanks for sharing your history and viewpoints. Edited February 22, 2007 by Chader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 (edited) I'm sorry to say that argument is fundamentaly flawed. If hopping etc is part of the sport, then it stands to reason that if hopping etc is against the rules, then it's not part of the sport. Are indoor trials run to different rules to outdoor trials? Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question, but I am a clueless n00b after all! Are indoor trials looked down upon by traditional trials riders? After all, there seems to be a lot of big steps and hopping involved. Is it effectively a different sport entirely? I dont think they are looked down on CG125 It is effectively a "different sport" not necessarily entirely. Bit like Supercross is effectively a different sport to Moto Cross. Indoor trials really showcase a riders trick riding skills to a captive audience are much more TV friendly and make money for the promoter. Dont know what relevance all that has to the WTC and the majority of Trials riders though ? So far the guys who do well in the indoor Trials events also do well in the WTC so the skills must come in handy. I do note though that the bikes are becoming more specialised for indoor events. Personally the indoor events dont really interest me but a lot of people enjoyed Sheffield and i think it was a sell out so using the yardstick that society now uses it must be a sucess. Edited February 22, 2007 by Old trials fanatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sendero Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 Chader, There is at least one "old guy" lurking out here that agrees with your opinion on the "no-stop' thing. This topic has been beaten to death. I'll beat it some more... I look forward to the day when some young, strong and ambitious "outside the box thinker" comes up with a completely new way to compete on a Trials bike. For example... when you free ride, is it anything like ridin' inside the tape? I enjoy watching a stop and hop guy gathering points while trying to hop his bike around a corner that could just be rolled. It shows me that he is workin' hard and looking forward to a day when he is more skilled and ridin' in a higher class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausy300pro Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 Just a point to consider, I think you will find that rule TSR22A answers all the problems we all have with the stop/no stop debate (sorry if my memory has failed me but cant find my acu handbook), if memory serves me under TSR22A it is a five if you hop sideways without forward motion so all it needs is correct (and brave) observing, dont mind being corrected if I have interpreted it wrong but no bombs unless you have read the rule as it is written in handbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 Trials is about control, control of machine and body. AND FUN!!! if it ain't fun don't do it. I will offer my opinion, although it may not solve anything. Stop= 0 points Feet up still in control of the machine. Stop with foot down= 5 points Agreed the second one is subjective because if someone hits a rock with front tire and ceases forward motion, and then places foot on ground and pushes creating forward motion in my opinion that is ok, but the individual that is basically using their foot and leg as a kickstand so they can take a break or survey the next part of the section is just lazy and deserves the 5. With the advancment of technology and design of trials machines it is possible for tighter turns and higher steps. I think I am agreeing with Chader on this next bit. The lower classes need to be set up so that hopping front or rear wheels around is not necessary, the middle classes could be set up so that a turn is so tight that there is only one line through it that can be just ridden through the turn but the option of hopping front or rear wheel is there, but the hardest class in the event should be set up as tight as possible and still be able to be ridden, I.E. super tight turns, obstacles less than a bike length apart. These types of sections will test both rider and machine closer to the limit. I don't think that a rider should be penalized just for hopping, sideways, forward, whatever. I am more irritated by the riders that do not follow what the "intended line" of the section is, I have seen many riders basically back track,(not crossing their path though), or go between a tree and a marker that has just enough room for the bike to pass through twice so that re-entering they have a straight shot at the next log instead of a 90 degree left hand turn, like the rest of the riders in that class will have. Is this a problem anywhere else? I started riding in the late late 70's , early 80's the general riding style was "no-stop" at the time but stopping and hopping was being toyed with (that might have been mid 80's) Any how, I try to incorporate both styles in my riding although the hopping don't happen much. I will walk a section and decide on my line. When doing this I am also deciding where I will stop and balance to maybe start a full lock turn at just the right spot. Or where I will need to do a "floater" turn, the point is that I am choosing a line and sticking with it, I have just decided where key places I will use other techniques, (and probably take points). I have seen riders that do not plan any farther than the other side of the obstacle and I think that may be what bothers OTF about the hop and bop style. But I may be completly wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 (edited) Generaly agree with you on most points Zippy. I know i havent explained myself very well in the past. I will have another go. My main objection with hop bop and jump techniques is. 1. They tend to make sections ever more difficult and eventually dangerous. OK assuming there are multiple routes then this is not too much of a problem but sometimes it's very difficult to have an "easy" route that avoids the worst but is still seeable by the same observer. 2. Do all these "gymnastics" attract more riders into the sport or do they get detered thinking i will never ever be able to do THAT. Dont know but what i do know is that the most popular Trial in the World which is regularly oversubscribed is run as NO STOP. May be just a coincidance. 3. Eventually the technique demands a bike that is more and more complimentary to the performance of that technique. I dont know if this is a possative thing or not but i do wonder how much this development "improves the breed" as they used to say when Trials was first invented. Your comments on riding out of the boundary of the section then riding back in again would result in a five over here and as i dont know the rules that you ride to in the US i can not comment but will say the problem would be solved by use of a boundary tape. However with more and more multiple routes, because of the wide differential in riding levels i.e. hop skip and jump or not, then this becomes impractical. When talking to friends i tend to find that the concensus of "what makes a great Trial and great sections" then by and large everybody likes "natural" sections defined by natural boundarys. See Scottish Six Days Trial. Most disliked "artificial" sections. Only time will tell. I suppose the technique is here to stay as long as the bikes support and even require that style of riding. As for what REALLY riles me? If a trial is run under No Stop rules then that should be rigidly enforced. It really riles me when riders ignore the No Stop rule and argue with observers becoming quite aggressive on some occaisions, i have seen full blown shouting matches and even physical aggression, That is not on. That is probably why i get so hot under the collar about modern riding techniques. They are fine if thats what floats your boat and the Trial rules allow it. I just wonder if it is the way forward for large Trials entrys again or a dead end retrograde step? Hopefully that was a bit more restrained. If i get agitated it's because i care more about the future of the sport than the preferences of a few. For those that are fed up reading abot this then dont. I replied only because Zippy mentioned me in his post. Edited February 25, 2007 by Old trials fanatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinshockdude Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 controversial as ever paul,but i think you are spot on with this one. very speciaized skills leads to more dangerous sections leads to smaller entries leads to the death of our sport.look back to the 70`s, club and centre trials in the east mids regularly had 150 entries - go figure !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrybaines Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 Good post OTF made a lot of good comments there My "personal" opinion on the trick riding atracting or detering riders for me I watch in awe and aspire too be able too ride like that. On the other end of that I can easily see how it could deter many a rider. As for what REALLY riles me? If a trial is run under No Stop rules then that should be rigidly enforced. It really riles me when riders ignore the No Stop rule and argue with observers becoming quite aggressive on some occaisions, i have seen full blown shouting matches and even physical aggression, That is not on.That is probably why i get so hot under the collar about modern riding techniques. They are fine if thats what floats your boat and the Trial rules allow it. Best bit of your post for me. I ride for fun and in my eyes the trials I atempt really aint gonna make anyone a livlyhood so why the hell anyone gets so wound up amazes me! Personally think a center ban should be enforced for the worse cases And agree that rules should be followed as long as they are CLEAR many a trial I've made a fool of myself at i've not been made aware if they were no stop or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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