Which Rules Do We Want?

[bdmc]

That's the problem bdmc some of the club's and rider's ain't sure what rule's they should be running under...

There aint no problem. As IDMC states, it is printed on the regs when you enterr a trial. If you are one of those who enters on the day you are taking a chance, hoping that it will be the rules that you want i.e TSR22a or TSR 22b.

Enter before the ACU trial and you will know what rules the event will be. If it aint the rules you want dont enter. Why should they chage for you??

I belive the majority of clubs run thier trials under the rules that the 'club members' want. They do not swap and chage over the year, therfore if you ride at a certain club at the beginning of the year you are 99% sure that the trial at the end of the year wil be the same rules.

Someone mentioned earlier that they would prefer NO STOP. Well the ACU and /or the club have given you the chance to ride NO STOP - TSR22B. Look at the regs or contact the secretay of the event to see what rules they are running the trial under. If the ACU- Which is you- decide to only have 1 set of rules eg TSR22b what about all the riders who want TSR22A?

As it is now there is no problem. Across the country there will be 100+ organised trials with a min of 50 per trial/ this weekend including Championship events That is 5000 competitors who are happy the way the ACU/Club are running things.

Leave the rules as they are which gives everyone a choice.

[idmcc_sec]

idmcc_sec most of us are intellectual enough to pick up the book and read, which brings me back to the point of how many riders actually know what rules they are riding under on the particular day they sign on whether they have read the rule book or not

I presume both bdmc and idmcc_sec have a lot to do with organising events, Yes we want to ride and if you care to read the questions (Bit like the rule book ) I personally think it may be better for the sport to run under one rule.

I have been riding and competing nearly every weekend for over 30 years now and yes this question keeps cropping up, but nowt is done about it, so I guess we shall continue to talk about it as we live in a democratic society!!!

Ah thats better

Yes, I'm heavily involved (as my user name suggests) and have 25+ years under my belt both as a rider and organiser (using both marking methods)

In Scotland now, everything is run under TSR 22B (No stop) which I personally prefer but I have no problem with two sets of rules, as long as the organisers, observers and riders know which set they're running their events with.

Up here, with less population, it makes more sense running 22B as this encourages the less skillful (that mainly means older ) riders to get involved too. I think 22A (hopping etc) is more suited to the young rider, and with more riders overall south of the border, two lots of rules are workable (as long as the organisers, observers and riders know which set they're running their events with.)

And that's why I think the rules should be left as they are. D.

[slapshot 3]

I love all these "chats" about the rules, we all lose sight of reality.

I think our sport needs to look at it's roots and it's history to see where we need to be. We started at no stop and have moved further away every year. The sport at it's top echelon is nothing like what you and me will tackle week in week out and to be honest that always worries me.

My other sport, is going through a big transition just now in Scotland and it's probably going to kill hockey for smaller clubs. The big clubs whose focus is money are pulling the sport away from clubs that don't have the money or infrastructure to follow suit, instead of moving to support the smaller clubs our governing is following the big clubs and the money, they are moving the sport away from us.

The mirror with trials is there, how much more is the sport going to have to change in this country to allow our young riders to cope with "The Show", it's where we've all dreamed of being at some point in our lives.

Motocross is the same whether you ride club scrambles, classic scrambles, national champs etc, the difference is the ability to ride quicker than your peers but in base terms you still ride scrambles.

If the sport of trials is to I firmly believe we need to get the rules back to where we were 20years ago before the hop skip and jump came in, back to no stop. The best riders will still be the best riders but it becomes something we can all attain.

A recent thread in Rappers weekly column pulled about 80 responses on the basis of the severity of the Scottish and without hijacking it, the Scottish did what it had to do, find a winner from the 270 riders using no stop rules, maybe the answer is there......

Cue protests

Edited June 9, 2007 by Slapshot 3

[scorpa3]

OK, lets all step back and have a look at this. As far as I know, there are only 2 methods of marking in the UK (I'm not including World Championships as they're something else).

1. TSR 22A

2. TSR 22B

Now, every registerd/licensed rider in the UK gets the ACU Handbook, so turn to page 162 and read the rules.

Every trial should state which rule it's using, from club trials upwards and if the organisers and observers had read the rules there would be little or no confusion!!!!

Seriously it's not rocket science and it's all down there in print.

BTW when you sign on at a trial you are declaring that you have read and understood the NSC, Standing Regs and Supplementary Regs (all in the book) D.

Plus the British Championship rules which are different from TSR22 A&B!

[jimmyl]

SDC - My kind of observer

To be honest if the terrain is good and and the sections are good it don't matter about the rules. Just mark things out to be ridden as natural as possible and all will have a good day. (ask 260 odd riders in th SSDT).

If you like hoping and jumping then you are either too young or never ridden a proper trial

[old trials fanatic]

I was up at Burrycliffe today to try out some carburettor jet changes i had done. Mick Andrews was doing a Trials school for some of the kids.

Now it's ages since i went to a "modern" trial and to be honest they dont interest me at all but the things that some of those kids were doing on 125cc bikes just amazed me.

There was no way in the world i could have done those things on any bike let alone my old James.

Conclusion is ?

The sport that those kids ride in is not the same sport that i and many like me ride in. The modern Trial has moved so far away from what i and many like me are capable of that the same rules can not really apply to all.

Possibly it is a case of chicken and the egg. The hop, stop, skip and jump rules bred a different style of riding which meant that bike development went in a different direction. Those riders on those bikes fit those rules and probably wouldnt even be interested in riding no stop rules.

Me and many others just couldnt even attempt 4, 5 & 6ft sheer rocks stoping dead at the top, stand it on the front wheel, pivot through 180 deg and ride away. Not even in my dreams. So if i had to ride those sections i would just not ride and take up another sport.

What is better for the sport? I have to say no stop. Why? because it encourages new blood into the sport. At least they can survive the sections. Hop, stop, roll back and jump is something only the few can ever aspire to. There is a need for that rule and those sort of trials as long as people want to ride them but it's so eliteist that the future of the sport as a whole could be in jeapody if those were the only rules.

There is a program on at the moment on ITV4 about extreme moto cross. Quite a nice parallel normal moto cross events and stadium or extreme events can both co exist. Why cant Trials do likewise?

The two disciplines can co exist as long as the riders and observers both know the rules the trial is run to and ride and mark accordingly.

The riders will then vote with their wallets.

That will be the only true way to give the customer what they want.

Youve probably guessed by now what i would have voted for in the poll if i had been able to.

Edited June 9, 2007 by Old trials fanatic

[scottt]

There is a program on at the moment on ITV4 about extreme moto cross. Quite a nice parallel normal moto cross events and stadium or extreme events can both co exist. Why cant Trials do likewise?

The two disciplines can co exist as long as the riders and observers both know the rules the trial is run to and ride and mark accordingly.

The difference between extreme Moto x and normal is about the same as the world indoor and outdoor trials championships.

Perhaps the hop skip and jump should become extreme trials (if it isnt already) and have different rules to normal trials.

[idmcc_sec]

Plus the British Championship rules which are different from TSR22 A&B!

OK split hairs, then again how many riders are doing the British Championship?

The rules, I'll assume, are FIM as they're not in the ACU Handbook.

Old trials fanatic

The two disciplines can co exist as long as the riders and observers both know the rules the trial is run to and ride and mark accordingly

Exactly my sentiments. D

Edited June 9, 2007 by idmcc_sec

[bilco]

I belive the majority of clubs run thier trials under the rules that the 'club members' want. They do not swap and chage over the year, therfore if you ride at a certain club at the beginning of the year you are 99% sure that the trial at the end of the year wil be the same rules.

So tell me bdmc do the club have a vote with all it's member's to see what rule they are going to ride under for that year?

Have you asked your fellow rider's what rule there ridding to?

My first club trial back after 20 year's of sitting up i got to the first section i watched 5 rider's go through, straight away it become obvious to me that there was 2 diffrent type's of trial's going on here,it should have been a no stop trial but there was hopping going on,i should point out it was the youngster's doing the hop's and i have nothing against that after all that's what there being trained to do,so if we look 5 to 10 year's ahead we will be stuck with the same problem but worse,the only answer is to separate the two rather sooner than later.

I've tried a few other club's same thing both rule's going on at the same trial.

It's the club's job to keep the youngster's interested in the sport and if they want to hop in a no stop trial there let them hop.

Edited June 10, 2007 by Slapshot 3
Sorted quote box

[gizza5]

OK split hairs, then again how many riders are doing the British Championship?

The rules, I'll assume, are FIM as they're not in the ACU Handbook.

Not many do the British Championship and why? That is the reason the rules maybe need looking at to open it up to more competitors.

I am not here to get into a slanging match, but it is good that people have different views, I know and it is fact that people do not read their handbook, now your going to say that they should, but hey ho we live in the real world and that never happens.

If a rider asks you at your club trial what rules they are riding(and that never happens either) and you tell them it is TSR?? that will mean nothing to them, they are not going to dash back to their van for a bit of light reading of the ACU handbook before they unlease their trusty steed on the course

I think the census of opinion would want the rules to go back to its roots as people have already suggested that here, it may be hard some people might say to lay the trial out No Stop with modern machinery and the terrain available.

''Read the rule book'' or ''if you don't want to ride under our rules don't turn up'' is a pretty negative attitude as this will never happen, I do think before long somone will take the bold step to simplify the rules, this in turn may open entries up at all levels from Club to WTC.

To the organisers at present this is not a dig at you so chill out, as you are following the said ''Rule Book'' of a TSR of your choice.

Just about to set off for a trial now, as I got my handbook on a disc better load my laptop computer aswell

[bilco]

Old trials fanatic

The two disciplines can co exist as long as the riders and observers both know the rules the trial is run to and ride and mark accordingly

Exactly my sentiments. D

So how exactly would this work Gent's.

would we need 3 more route's added to the other route's already in the section's to accommodate for the beg hopper's,novice hopper's,expert hopper's.

or

run them on the no stop route's running on the hop rule's,in which case as a no stop rider i'd be better off signing on to run on the hop rule's,so if i had to correct myself i'd lose less mark's,would'nt that wipe out the no stop rule if every no stop rider thought the same.Sound's like dodgy ground to me.

[old trials fanatic]

Old trials fanatic

The two disciplines can co exist as long as the riders and observers both know the rules the trial is run to and ride and mark accordingly

Exactly my sentiments. D

So how exactly would this work Gent's.

would we need 3 more route's added to the other route's already in the section's to accommodate for the beg hopper's,novice hopper's,expert hopper's.

or

run them on the no stop route's running on the hop rule's,in which case as a no stop rider i'd be better off signing on to run on the hop rule's,so if i had to correct myself i'd lose less mark's,would'nt that wipe out the no stop rule if every no stop rider thought the same.Sound's like dodgy ground to me.

Sorry i should have made myself clearer. What i meant was that Clubs should clearly state at the start of the year that their trials will be run as No stop rules or not. Then riders would be able to choose which clubs events they would prefer to ride at.

[idmcc_sec]

I understood what you meant OTF D.

[scorpa3]

Stating which rules the club are going to use doesn't really help the problem. There are two sets (plus BTC/FIM) of rules and strong opinions why each set is the best. You will never convince the hard core of riders to give up their preffered option volunterily. I personally think we should all go full non stop. But there are also good reasons for doing/not doing this, here are my thoughts.

The 'a stop is a one' rule which the majority of clubs use, is almost never observed correctly as many observers do not know the complete set of rules.

Since this system was introduced, (as Bilco noticed above) I personally have rarely seen a mark given for stopping and not once seen a five given for a stationary bounce, despite seeing stationary bounces over and over again. I often have to explain the rules to a new observer five minutes after the trial should have started. It's hard enough to grasp the 0,1,2,3 with a five for, crashing, stalling or going the wrong way. Never mind the other stuff about stopping with their feet down or bouncing.

We've got into a pickle and what makes it even worse is that having adopted the FIM version of the rules a few years back, the FIM then changed again... hence the BTC fiasco of a third set of rules.

There's no one to blame for this mess but none the less we are in it.

Sorry, this has all been covered on numerous occasions in the past. I'll stop now.

Edited June 10, 2007 by scorpa3

[bilco]

Oh sorry OTF i see your meaning now,i thought they might of converted you whilst you was at that training session the other day.

Right GIZZA5 it look's like we got a result.

Look's like your the man to tell the man at the top that his made a right dog's dinner out of this lot.

Edited June 11, 2007 by bilco