Andy Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Some say I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shercoman2k8 Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Funny that! I was just about to post up a topic about the disgraceful section marking in some places... round here the few club trials I've gone and watched are normally quite well marked but only last weekend I was staying down in Wales, I had the bike with me and a few mates convinced me to come along to the trial, was an open one and I have to say the marking was shocking, the markers were all different, some were old flags on bamboo, some were plastic card, some were laminated sheets of coloured A4 and the worst end markers ive ever seen, guess what they were? Two old jumpers! Now thats the state of them but even the posistioning was crap... the markers were in places that they were bound to get hit by everything, it was as if they had to be there whereas an inch or two either side wouldn't of changed the section but the markers would of been out of harms way. I know there's not much money in the sport but markers are a nescessity.. why stinge when you can make the trial look a lot more professional and that way help your club gain an undecided member or two, even when the clubs do spend money on decent markers they dont really try and preserve them, like I mentioned if they moved them an inch or two they would of been out of harms way this keeping the markers in good condition and keeping the clubs overheads down! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 As I have seen a lot of piccies from "over there" over te years I have always been baffled! Just to baffle some club members, I have actually diverted from our normal taped sections and used some flags and such as outer boundry markers, not that one would want to go there as natural boundries preclude it!\ NO GO! As you still have to make your class split markers posted inbetween! So in that case , the outer boundrys are not important. As this is just a varience that I put on, most of ours are just wrapped in white tape now, as per the NATC, yet the clubs can do whatever they like on a club basis. And although the NATC has recommended a separate "gate" posting, similar to WTC events, few can follow as the marking requierments just get to be too much, where just a simple marker on "splits" will do to point the classes which way. Simple signs have been printed that you just post on a tree or something three classes such as AMA INT EXP down the middle of the card, then the clerk adds the arrows with a marker to indicate which way each goes, all black and white. And the most effective i have seen yet. Doing the "gates" thing can be added to the simple splits in the circumstance that you need to keep an advanced class rider to a certain area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Couldn't agree more. Whilst some peeps will come on here and say there is no problem with how it is, if you cant work out the route then you're some kind of pleb! I mean, why make it unnecessarily difficult? There are lots of benefits to standardising the flag system. The first thing is obvious.. Cost! If someone designed a system that was designed to be functional but cheap to make, and everyone in the country used them, then the price would be low as they would be manufactured in high numbers and achieve better price breaks. A possible revenue stream for the ACU ? Secondly, a standard system would make trials at any venue in any part of the country more enjoyable. Finally, the only way I think this could be done is if the ACU get a working group of clubs together and discuss, then impose a system in the rules for all to use. The only reason I use to set out trials was to hope that the peeps riding the trial enjoyed it. If they never, then why? I always looked at trials riders as being customers and customer satisfaction is the number one priority to stay in business. If putting in a cost effective standard system enhances the enjoyment then its a no brainer in my book ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Having recently mentioned the subject of standardised colours (see HERE) I fully agree with Mike's comments. Arrows (always in pairs) with red - A, Blue - B, Yellow - C, White - D. Stapled or glued to trees/sticks/wires. From 01-01-10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micm Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Wires seem ok to me easy to carry when setting out, should be used in pairs, sling out the flags when they get knackered etc. They don't hurt when you fall on them - usually. Setting out 10 sections with big timber markers took bagfulls of sticks OK for vampire slaying though I can't say I ever encountered that problem at a trial. I think it is the multiple route arrangements that are hard to read regardless of the markers used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikespace Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Finally, the only way I think this could be done is if the ACU get a working group of clubs together and discuss, then impose a system in the rules for all to use. Working group? You having a larf? How did the ACU forum go this year? Wasn't that an attempt to get 8-10 people together for a chat? Everybody can think up grand ideas, but they've got to be realistic and 'do'able with a small army of hard working volunteers with ever increasing commitments away from the world of trials. I've seen clubs fold when they try to do things on too grand a scale, because gradually people back away from being dragged in to the bigger commitment. That for me is a good reason not to spend big effort on something that many people don't even think is a problem. What weekend you free for the working group? [please insert emoticon with a little troll holding a fishing rod] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Having recently mentioned the subject of standardised colours (see HERE) I fully agree with Mike's comments.Arrows (always in pairs) with red - A, Blue - B, Yellow - C, White - D. Stapled or glued to trees/sticks/wires. From 01-01-10. er, not quite - as you both propose entirely different colours for the various routes.... Therein lies the problem - everyone has their own ideas of how they should be and I'd guess there is little chance of getting agreement across all centres, let alone getting people even interested in discussing it. Still can't see a problem with different events (within a centre, never mind across centres...) using different colours, they are explained in the regs so not rocket science to work out when you get to the sections. I do agree about the quality of markers though which should be big and clear. That said however, as it's virtually habit for a percentage of riders at any event to want the various routes explained to them by the observer before and after they look for themselves, I can't see that changing no matter how big and clear the markers, or whether they are standardised colours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big john Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 (edited) Well up here in Scotland, we are going to try Red = Hardest Route; Blue = next step down; Green = Easier still and Yellow = easiest! (Call them 'ABCD' if you like!) Because of rider and observer feedback over the last competitive season it was evident that something had to be done, many clubs were running different colours and to be fair Scotland isn't a big country and we have less than a dozen clubs who actually run trials, so it was sensible to get everyone using the same pre-set colours. OK at the moment it only affects those who run a Scottish championship round, but if clubs are sensible (which I think they are) they will adopt this coloured marking system for all trials north of the border. There is a maximum of 4 routes (any more than that and it just gets stupid!) The old 'red on your right and blue on your left' system served us well when there were one or maybe two routes to choose from, but it gets far too messy with three sets of markers or more. Seems a simple solution to the problem. OK some clubs may have to ditch a load of markers initially but, to my knowledge, four clubs have already adopted the new SACU system already. We shall see how it translates on the ground on March 29th at Bon Accord's Championship opener at Craiglash Quarry, Banchory. There are no other trials events on that date guys, so you may as well ride it! Big John Edited February 23, 2009 by Big John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Well up here in Scotland, we are going to try Red = Hardest Route; Blue = next step down; Green = Easier still and Yellow = easiest! (Call them 'ABCD' if you like!)Because of rider and observer feedback over the last competitive season it was evident that something had to be done, many clubs were running different colours and to be fair Scotland isn't a big country and we have less than a dozen clubs who actually run trials, so it was sensible to get everyone using the same pre-set colours. OK at the moment it only affects those who run a Scottish championship round, but if clubs are sensible (which I think they are) they will adopt this coloured marking system for all trials north of the border. There is a maximum of 4 routes (any more than that and it just gets stupid!) The old 'red on your right and blue on your left' system served us well when there were one or maybe two routes to choose from, but it gets far too messy with three sets of markers or more. Seems a simple solution to the problem. OK some clubs may have to ditch a load of markers initially but, to my knowledge, four clubs have already adopted the new SACU system already. We shall see how it translates on the ground on March 29th at Bon Accord's Championship opener at Craiglash Quarry, Banchory. There are no other trials events on that date guys, so you may as well ride it! Big John In the North Kent we are very customer focused AA, we have one set of colour cards for each route ie: experts=white Inters=Blue Novice=red sportmans = yellow. it doesn't stop therrhowever because we have loads of different classes ie: An Inter B rider its 50/50 blue and red sections with a sign at the start of each section to say which route the rider riders, Same as Expert b a mix of blue and white routes on the course. You can also have a twinshock on Blue or Red depending what route they wanted to ride and the British bikes can ride red or yellow....this is getting exhausting just thinking about all these different classes, but my point is what ever route you ride you would ride between the same set of colour cards. Agree with others about the quality of cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Yes, it has just been deemed in Scotland that the new system as described by big John will now apply to all Scottish Championship Events, however I can not agree that all "sensible clubs?" will adopt this system for all Trials as it is far too complicated with where four routes are in use it will mean differently coloured sized A5 cards will be placed side by side at each side of the section. Our own Club uses the twisted pig tail wires, where you often have difficulty locating one card let alone four. As Rappers said in his article there is nothing wrong with the standard red/blue system that everyone understands with agreed coloured variation markers for the Expert and out and out Novice Routes. We are also to have each of the coloured arrow cards with a zero on the reverse side so that the riders, when seeing the O side of the cards will know they are riding down the section in the wrong direction. We are also to use colour co-ordinated cards and punch cards to identify the course each rider should be using to assist the observers. OVER COMPLICATED OR WHAT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 living in what I think is smallest centre in the country you would think we had little to do to sort this out , indeed the centre has recently spent (probably) hundreds of man hours debating this and it seems that we now have an official local system which is different from even our adjoining centres. One of the stumbling blocks was the matter of identifying which rider should be on what route and how to make this clear to all. Having read all the above contributionsit is clear that there is most definitly a requirement for a simple cheap and universally understandable sytem. I am quite aware that the colours to be used are set down in standing regs but like Mike say's the interpretation and implementation of this is so diverse as to render it useless. just to spice the discussion it is a medical fact that a high proportion of men are prone to difficulty in distinguishing red from green (something I always found difficult when crossing moors). Having ridden dozens of trials in Europe I have to say that route marking is generally poor (coloured tapes tied to posts, trees etc.) and the section marking generally excellent with up to six routes (identified by coloured "gates" of same colour)through a section it needs to be! Of course many of the old boys will say there should be only one route through a section.... if that was the case then the handbook would make sense. Here's another thought; one of the contributors indicated that it is difficult to get people interested enough to go to rugby and work out these management issues. That can hardly be surprising to anybody who has done anything to promote our sport. having read that back it really is exactly opposite to the stated intentions of the ACU. Perhaps in these days of video conferencing and forums such as this one, there is another way of reaching conclusions which are universally agreed to be benificial to us all. Meanwhile we can expect to find anything from old socks to full tape to mark out sections I agree that this is not neccesarily the best situation but when I'm marking out I will do anything possible to minimise the load I have to carry, the plastic "sticks" sound a great solution but of course they will now be illegal in our centre unless a ruling comes from HQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapshot 3 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Good debate but I can't help but think that people are over-complicating the situation in Scotland for no reason. I ride green route therefore I ride between the green cards. Observer sees green card on the front of my bike and punches my green punch card, what could be simpler. Blue and red worked when there was a single route, maybe two and will work with trials like the SSDT/P65 trial and the Scott: how many other trials in the UK are single route trials these days?? With the multitude of routes nearly every trial seems to have these days it's becoming more and more complex depending on which trials you attend, you spend your first lap racking up fives because the sections haven't been laid out that clearly and you miss your route or you are at a trial that uses green for easy but the trial last week was yellow and you pick out a wrong colour. It's confusing and it needed a change. WTC use a slightly different scheme based on the same concept you only ride between the arrows of you colour route, Red - WTC route, Green - Junior, Blue - Youth. If they can use it why can't a simple system like this be adapted and adopted here. Unless we are going to go back to one route for all then a change is necessary. If some clubs want to bury their heads in the sand and find problems before we start well I suppose theres nothing anyone can do about that but personally I'm looking forward to helping lay out the first round of the Scottish Champs in a couple of weeks and watching the new system work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 WTC use a slightly different scheme based on the same concept you only ride between the arrows of you colour route, Red - WTC route, Green - Junior, Blue - Youth. If they can use it why can't a simple system like this be adapted and adopted here.Unless we are going to go back to one route for all then a change is necessary. If some clubs want to bury their heads in the sand and find problems before we start well I suppose theres nothing anyone can do about that but personally I'm looking forward to helping lay out the first round of the Scottish Champs in a couple of weeks and watching the new system work. Good for you mate! You've hit the nail on the head. It will work if people try and make it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieboy Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Why is it some people are queuing up to slate the red-right,blue left system? I rode a Stevenson club trial last week with 3 routes.Red and blue for the standard route with white cards for A route deviations and yellow cards for C route deviations.Are far as I am aware everyone had a good day,no-one rode the wrong route.Job done. Ok,it was just a small club trial on a small piece of ground and there was not a lot of scope for many multiple route deviations so mainly one route with some harder/easier parts. So with this new coloured marking system a small trial like this where it is mainly one route,to put in even 3 routes and not the four proposed,Most of these sections would need all these colours together either side to let everyone know where to ride. Setting a trial out like this is going to take more time and more markers,and some people will say,stuff that and not set out anymore.Valuable helpers lost and more work for the few that take time out to ensure we all have a day out on our bikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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