Vic Brit Naughties

[jam]

Thanks to some riders we had a difficult time in trying to read the finishing times on the punch cards as some rider/s were seen rubbing the time off the cards................Thanks !!

We also know who it was

Edited January 5, 2010 by jam

[gizza5]

Have you spoken to the rider as you know who it was?

If not he has got away with it surely?

[nigel dabster]

I spoke to a rider today(not Alexz) and he said either the pen or the plastic or temperature made the time written on come off easily.

Before blaming riders perhaps it would be best to check this first?

[gizza5]

I spoke to a rider today(not Alexz) and he said either the pen or the plastic or temperature made the time written on come off easily.

Before blaming riders perhaps it would be best to check this first?

......and maybe as said the officials saw some riders altering their cards? I wasn't there, but if it was clear that they were doing that then something maybe should have been said.

Asking a rider what he did and what he didn't do is a very grey area, altering time cards is a fine art and there are some real experts in the SSDT past and present?

All the Experts dropped time? Why when most of the clubmen got in on time. If they didn't hang around too much then we wouldn't be having this conversation!

[trialsnutterman]

I wasn't there but was the time tight due to the stop and hop rules and setting 2 off per minute? riders quite often take well over a minute in a section so you can soon end up with a big queue.

[jam]

We can all blame everyone else, even the weather.

The point is, at any level your NOT a true sportsman if you do something like this, I would feel ashamed to read this.

The opportunity won't be there next time - lesson learnt by all, I hope!

Edited January 5, 2010 by jam

[pete_scorpa3]

I remember a certain rider from the Midlands/East Midlands being banned from competing in any ACU trial for altering a punch card a few years back.

[chewy]

Why not name & shame the known riders as it is they are not only fooling themselves once riders know it means losing face they will be less keen to do this sort of thing. I suppose in these modern times they only need to follow example of our leaders and say sorry ..then it will all be fine again. hardly sporting though. I must say I used to hate it when riding nationals and other guys would start pushing in, strategically parking at front of que etc. etc. They know full well it's the same problem for everyone it can only be that they think they are somehow more entitled to take advantage than those who don't. The guys with talent are not normally the offenders unless they have had some serious problems. As this post is only a vague reference to some people there will be speculation regarding innocent guys.

[rosey]

I remember a certain rider from the Midlands/East Midlands being banned from competing in any ACU trial for altering a punch card a few years back.

Sounds like somebody who's made for government!

[dan williams]

A lovely example of the necessity of enforcing rules. Let a few slide than more will do it until the situation becmes impossible. I would hope you have a rule about disqualification for those who modify cards and even better if you have some random check mechanism that will make it more risky. i.e. your card doesn't match the random check you're disqualified. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth but you should also have a rule that the RIDER is responsible for the condition of his score card. If it's unreadable at the section exit get it fixed before you leave. If it smudges on the loop it be on your head.

As for public humiliation don't do it. People are competitive but shame them and they may just leave or worse. Take their points away and they'll be mad but then they'll have something to prove.

As an aside one of the local dirt bike forums here had a member who said some things that were untrue looking for a little attention. She was called on it and given some rather rough treatment. Just before Christmas she was found murdered. There are a lot of people that wish they could unsay what was said. More wish they had stepped in to help her get her life back on track. Now it's too late.

Remember folks this is just a game. Maybe for twenty or thirty people it's a living but for the rest of us it's playtime. Make fair rules, enforce them evenly and don't take it too seriously.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Dan Williams

[sectiononecleaner]

Well said dan williams i like your style dude, perhaps you should run for presindency. Actually dont get me started on that one lol.

[timp]

I would of thought this was easily cured by having the timekeeper make a list of everyones time as well as marking their time on their punchcards. A lot of nationals I have done don't mark punchcards with late finish at all.

[perce]

I would of thought this was easily cured by having the timekeeper make a list of everyones time as well as marking their time on their punchcards. A lot of nationals I have done don't mark punchcards with late finish at all.

Jack Wood for one I can think of straight away, as you finish the last section you're clocked off & WRITTEN in the Time Marshals book. BTW to be named as a Timekeeper you have to be an offical licenced ACU one hence The Scott only has Time Marshal.

[woody]

Remember folks this is just a game. Maybe for twenty or thirty people it's a living but for the rest of us it's playtime. Make fair rules, enforce them evenly and don't take it too seriously.

A contradiction surely. Rules are there for a reason, they should be enforced so have to be taken seriously..??

Yes we do it for enjoyment but it is also for the enjoyment of competing and achieving the best result possible - to some people the result means more than the means by which it was achieved and it happens too often - usually by riders capable of winning - eg: badgering observers to alter scores, getting another rider (unknown to the observer that he is a friend) to confirm that you didn't dab on the observer's blind side, or ride outside of a marker, getting a re-run in a section because you were baulked (again, deliberately, by a friend, after marks have been lost in the section) pressuring the observer to give you a re-run after going the wrong way in a section.

'Unknown' riders don't get away with this because the observer isn't bothered about docking an 'unknown' marks as it won't affect the winners result. When one of the 'names' starts badgering, some observers will be concerned that their marks may cost the rider the trial, so gives the benefit of the doubt (even when there is no doubt)

All of the above are examples of cheating and if not taken seriously, we just give the cheats free licence to cheat at will

[dan williams]

Perhaps I should rephrase that. Apply the rules to everyone equally. Don't take the sport too seriously. It is possible to do both. I've fived everyone from Schriber to close friends riding novice class. Yes I've been yelled at and on occasion it's gotten under my skin but I don't take it personally and the riders know it's just the rules. They may be mad for the moment but they also know everyone else who puts a wheel in the section is equal and that's critical.

This may be a case where the symptom is diagnosed but not the disease. It is imperative the trials masters and the officials back up the observers. If the observer is clear on the rules (which is the trialsmaster's job) and they make a judgment call but are overruled because the rider is "important" then the rules become pointless and observers will just do what they have to do to have a pleasant day. When I've thrown events I make it a point to have the materials and training for the observers to understand the rules and I make sure they understand they are the law in the section. Unless there is a clear misunderstanding of the rules I back up my observer's decisions.

One thing that bugged me when I checked the US national in Vermont this year was the NATC rep saying at the checkers meeting not to be too much of a stickler for the rules because everyone was out for a fun time. Huh? One of the grizzled New England guys piped up and said, "So...... Which rules are we supposed to ignore then?" After a good laugh we all headed into the woods. Heh heh, New Englanders be lenient on the rules? I don't think so. We're known for being strict, but fair. We also got voted best national. If the riders know they can't get away with any shenanigans they won't try.

But I stand by the public shaming as not an option. A DQ on the scoresheet speaks loud enough.