ham2 Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 "What's needed is a bike that falls somewhere between the Scorpa SY200 (or whatever it is) and the current 'big bikes'. Aircooled, uncomplicated 250 motor with gentle power delivery in a modern chassis would be perfect for most clubmen or novice riders. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be fashionable so it would never sell... "Personally, I have had this same idea for years! I have nothing against the 4T's in a simple sense. They can be great fun to ride, yet is seems the perfect air cooled simple reliable motor has never been done for trials use. The little Scorpa/Yam in 175 version may be the closest thing that has ever been sold, yet it still seems far from ideal. That bike WILL perform! But requires a real rider to do it! In a positive sense, a proper carb on a 4T can be done, and the Beta or the Sherco actually run quite well, with little to no hesitation or spitback. Bikes chug along and respond nicely. I do not think Honda ever really achieved that mark, they just went for the FI on the Mont. Now lets see, If I could just get the 225 aircooled top off the Serow onto the Sherco or Beta bottom end? We might just have a winner! Drop it in a mono or twinshock frame of choice, with real brakes! The little tractor would take most anyone anywhere they wanted to go, trials or trails. Caby, Bou and others do not seem to have a problem finding traction on a 4T, although I will admit it is a skill thing, has a lot more to do with the left hand than the right! The Gasser motor would probably be a working thing in many senses, yet never the world beater they want. What any of that has to do with the rest of us I do not know. Mont as example! They got the world beater, we still get crap! Or nothing at all! Screw them. Some may still like their bikes, yet I have little respect for how they have *******ized the brand through the marketing and price! Let me set out my stall here,I'm not a 4st hater, I've only tried a Cota 4rt and it was a hoot, suited me,great for p***ing about on but that just about sums up at what level I ride trials. If someone is bothered about competitions/results I realise they would have to spend more money on the 4rt to compete with a (out of the box)2 stroke. The std 4rt is for clubmen not experts. But I'll add this caveat:If you're a top rider you can ride 'owt' but as for the other 99% of us?? Will the manufacturers now go to the FIM and tell them that the 4st /emissions regulations are economically unworkable? God knows that Honda have thrown everything at it and it seems they have suffered the worst commercially. So what we're saying here is that the marketing men have cocked it up ;Montesa-Honda now realise that the average trials rider aint gonna pay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Let me set out my stall here,I'm not a 4st hater, I've only tried a Cota 4rt and it was a hoot, suited me,great for p***ing about on but that just about sums up at what level I ride trials.If someone is bothered about competitions/results I realise they would have to spend more money on the 4rt to compete with a (out of the box)2 stroke. The std 4rt is for clubmen not experts. But I'll add this caveat:If you're a top rider you can ride 'owt' but as for the other 99% of us?? Will the manufacturers now go to the FIM and tell them that the 4st /emissions regulations are economically unworkable? God knows that Honda have thrown everything at it and it seems they have suffered the worst commercially. So what we're saying here is that the marketing men have cocked it up ;Montesa-Honda now realise that the average trials rider aint gonna pay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham2 Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 The current economic climate has obviously made customers question the supposed value/worth of many products. Long may it continue. (I saw an advert on TV trying to persuade people to renew razor blades. How desperate is that ?) Don't tell me?...you're a beardee ? Cue:Z-Z-Top music? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 I'm only a club B route rider and I'm rubbish if you show me a rock, but I can honestly say that I would loose more marks in a 4t than on a 2t. As much as I love the idea of a four stroke and I really wanted to like them, the main reason for riding is to compete so it stands to reason that I want to loose the least marks as possible. Maybe with a lot of practice my opinion would change, but from the short rides I've had on all the models available, I have decided to stick to the 2t. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
for artie Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Will the manufacturers now go to the FIM and tell them that the 4st /emissions regulations are economically unworkable? Where in the FIM rules are these "emission regulations"??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
for artie Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 (edited) I object actually to the con, which was started by Montesa or Honda or the FIM. Conspiracy Theory? I would need more details before I become a believer. Edited January 17, 2010 by for artie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
for artie Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Ralph,I'm not anti-four stroke. Just anti the draconian and ill-considered legislation dumped on us by the FIM. Again, can someone tell me what this legislation is and where it can be read in the FIM rule book? and if it is so, then why are 2T still allowed in WTC??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Conspiracy Theory? I would need more details before I become a believer. the fim said maybe 6 or more years back that within 2 years all bikes in the WTC had to be fourstroke. its not in the rules because in the timescale the only company that could comply were Honda / Montesa and you cant have a one make series. Sherco were at least a year late but still to early for the product they produced. Beta took mare time but have made a reasonable job of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 Do a Google search and see if you can find anything about a world wide 4t trials bike conspiracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham2 Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 Where in the FIM rules are these "emission regulations"??? It was a few years ago when the announcement was made but the deadline was continually moved to ''next season'' ,which brings us, pretty much, up to date.It looks like the 4 stroke rules are un-enforcible so the 2 strokes can still play. Or are you suggesting that these stipulations do not exist and therefore the manufacturers themselves have (re?)-introduced the 4 stroke trials-bike onto the market? Or are you suggesting there was originally a huge consumer demand for 4st trials bikes so the manufacturers 'filled the void' ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilc0 Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 It a shame honda did'nt do a 2 aswell as a 4,makes you wonder just what honda was hoping for. Honda placed there bet and rather lost out this time around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 Honda dispensed with 2-strokes of their own accord, initially in motocross, long before the FIM tried to dictate the WTC must be 4-stroke only. All the other manufacurers that had 2-strokes continued to run them alongside 4-strokes. When the FIM said that to compete in WTC you have to do it on a 4-stroke, I suspect that if the other trials manufacturers had told the FIM to stuff their WTC the outcome may have been different. The FIM have no say in what a factory produces and if they realised that the WTC would only consist of 2 Honda Montesa riders they may have capitulated and perhaps the other trials factories wouldn't have bothered manufacturing 4-stroke trials bikes and saved themselves a lot of money - who knows? Certainly not us, only the factory heads. As in enduro, the swing that initially went towards 4-strokes has now swung back to 2-strokes. Today's 2-stroke trials bikes are easier to ride than the Mont/Scorpa/Beta/Sherco watercoolers. They are cheaper to buy, cheaper and easier to maintain and cost much less to rebuild if things go wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ham2 Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 It a shame honda did'nt do a 2 aswell as a 4,makes you wonder just what honda was hoping for.Honda placed there bet and rather lost out this time around. I reckon that a new Honda-Montesa Cota 316(?) 2 st would be the worlds most eagerly anticipated trials bike ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ishy Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 I think more folk prefer two strokes to four strokes, many did buy them new and give them a try, those that liked them are still riding them, those that didn't went back to the two stroke. Providing the four stroke fans can still have a supply of parts and machines, there will be loyal following of four stroke riders. Will there be enough sales each year to make it worth while for any factory to keep producing four stroke trials bikes I don't know, but they do add to the sport and it would be a shame to not have them around. I have owned and ridden all of the current four strokes, and the bottom line for me! in the sections I can't do as well on them as I can on a two stroke, cross country they do seem to perform better, but not too many events are those parts a major factor in the results. It's all old hat and has been done before, if the 4rt was the best trials machine out there, I think the sales would back this fact up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
for artie Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 (edited) I object actually to the con, which was started by Montesa or Honda or the FIM. The TRUE CON has been carried out by those that did not want 4Ts. They have convinced some of us that Big Brother FIM was in alliance with Honda to force 4Ts on all of us. Its brilliant. They have conned you into believing that you are being conned. Edited January 18, 2010 by for artie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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