biffsgasgas Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) One thing to be clear about is that diagnostic equipment alone won't diagnose a vehicle. All resume's aside diagnosing a driveability concern takes a ton of education. If your lucky you have a trouble code that might have been set with some data around the criteria for that code to be set but even then the developer still has unanswered questions. You still have to understand the inputs and outputs involved to determine if the decision being made is a good one or not. I review tons of CAN logs a day to determine root cause. Then I have to determine if the decision being made is the desirable one based on those inputs. A tool is only as good as its creator. The reference to scanners and past technology drawing parallels to modern technology is moot. A diagnostic tool should be used as a tool to rate quality not prove it. This is law of averages... The more you need a tool in the world the larger the population is that knows how to use that tool. Trials riders are predominately educated on carburetors. The need for EFI diagnostic knowledge and equipment is really not needed for the mass population these days. EFI is much easier to see inputs and outputs. Its much simpler, it can be logged, it can be quantified, and there is a ton less guess work. Unfortunately for this topic you will find that ball parking a fuel delivery system is effective so proving one ball park figure over another quantifying better or worse is difficult. So if this discussion is really about which is better then produce your DFEMA (with severity impact), is/is not paredo and fish bone diagram where you have identified all of the critical X's. Then show where you have provided acceptance criteria for the uncertain world we live in. Proof is in the data. You won't get data from a carburetor so good luck. Some of the smartest people in the world have been ball parking carburetor data for years (read some SAE papers on the topic if you don't agree) Also show where you have accounted for a critical X that no two engines operate the same. They have a wide window of operating conditions and critical X's. The topic is silly if you can not provide burden of proof. I will accept your data in your choice of excel or access format now Dadof2 and help you present your point of who pi..es fuel into a downstream airflow better so that we can eliminate the human emotion/opinion factor. As long as we run a monte carlo with the data provided then and only then can you show that one is better or worse than the other. Keep in mind you have an audience here... --Biff... no resume needed to identify my class standing.... the first... esquire... with a hand full of throttle... 6 sigma black belt... Edited January 31, 2015 by biffsgasgas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 I thought for a moment the above by bgg was going to be a balanced summary of the necessary information required to analize efi, not an attempt to out bulli**** do2. Give me carbs, with all their supposed failings, if this is what's required for efi. I've had more than enough of that, and the costs that go with expert analysis, to last a lifetime on various cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Dont you start Ross ! Car = 4 wheels often diesel expected to last 100k miles. Rarely used off road often turbo charged Not relevant! !? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Dont you start Ross ! Car = 4 wheels often diesel expected to last 100k miles. Rarely used off road often turbo charged Not relevant! ! Glen, so car makers with massive budgets and expertise, vehicles with a relatively easy life, can't get it right......your point is ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) My point is how many 4rt or ossa systems have failed bearing in mind the 4rt was released in 2005 and the ossa in 2011. In France, the usa and Germany trials are not permitted in streams. A carb bike will be of no assistance to our cause should lawmakers attempt this here. Fuel injection works on trials bikes with significant environmental benefits. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? COPEMECH DADOF2 And yes my next bike will be fi or battery Edited January 31, 2015 by baldilocks 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the addict Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) I've had 4rt's since 2007 and I've never had even the slightest of problems with fuelling neither has any of my friends who have Monts, and I've never heard of any issues either at a trial, on here or anywhere else. The only issue I've heard of are tired fuel pumps, and these are generally from old 05/06 bikes, probably done a few SSDT's and toughish lives. I'll be out on mine tomorrow at 8.30am, expect the weather will be minus something and I can expect the bike to run all day exactly as it would in the summer or any condition, perfectly as ever. Edited January 31, 2015 by the addict Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted February 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 The issue of carbs leaking fuel is easily sorted, and should be immediately because it would usefully improve fuel consumption as well. The overflow pipes are led into catch chamber and from there raised back to the tank using a diaphragm or similar simple pump. This closed system would also prevent water ingress to carb. This topic is now up to #168 and some posters are making assertions, misquoting me or asking questions that have already been answered. Briefly I will cover some again. The reasons for switching to EFI on 4T do not generally apply to 2T so quoting Bous bike as a reason for 2T EFI is not valid. Yamaha produce both 2 and 4 stoke MX bikes, the 4T have EFI the 2T does not - What do Yamaha know? If there was consensus (in trials) that EFI gave a competitive advantage on 2T it is a fair bet that Gasgas, Sherco and Beta would have introduced it some time ago. The question is not does EFI work - it can be made to. But the full benefits of EFI can never be realised on a trials bike for reasons I have posted previously. In excess of 40 years working on vehicles I have never come across a carb problem that could not be sorted easily and cheaply. Contrast this with EFI where in the same period I have known problems that have been challenging to diagnose (to say the least) and have had repair costs frequently in the £several hundreds or £thousand +. What has come across in this and other topics is that quite a few do not understand and cannot set up carbs. Many probably do not realise that a carb compensates for changes in atmospheric temperature and pressure to a useful extent. On several of the bikes I have had I have checked the initial carburation, adjusted it if necessary and then apart from a fraction of a turn on the slow running screw never had to adjust it again. Some have said EFI does not fail or are not aware of EFI failures. That depends on what you regard as part of the EFI system. I have heard of regulator / rectifier failure on 4RTs Ossa have had a least one remapping exercise to cure problems and have had to fit a battery to make some bikes start. A carbed 2T will still start and run with either of the above failures. I run an EFI car and am quite happy to do so, the equivalent carb set up would be complex, expensive and need more maintenance. I have a couple of CV carbed 1100 road bikes, never given any problems but need balancing now and then. Would I prefer them to be EFI, no not really because it would be more difficult to diagnose and costly to fix if it went wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 The issue of carbs leaking fuel is easily sorted, and should be immediately because it would usefully improve fuel consumption as well. The overflow pipes are led into catch chamber and from there raised back to the tank using a diaphragm or similar simple pump. This closed system would also prevent water ingress to carb. This topic is now up to #168 and some posters are making assertions, misquoting me or asking questions that have already been answered. Briefly I will cover some again. The reasons for switching to EFI on 4T do not generally apply to 2T so quoting Bous bike as a reason for 2T EFI is not valid. Yamaha produce both 2 and 4 stoke MX bikes, the 4T have EFI the 2T does not - What do Yamaha know? If there was consensus (in trials) that EFI gave a competitive advantage on 2T it is a fair bet that Gasgas, Sherco and Beta would have introduced it some time ago. The question is not does EFI work - it can be made to. But the full benefits of EFI can never be realised on a trials bike for reasons I have posted previously. In excess of 40 years working on vehicles I have never come across a carb problem that could not be sorted easily and cheaply. Contrast this with EFI where in the same period I have known problems that have been challenging to diagnose (to say the least) and have had repair costs frequently in the £several hundreds or £thousand +. What has come across in this and other topics is that quite a few do not understand and cannot set up carbs. Many probably do not realise that a carb compensates for changes in atmospheric temperature and pressure to a useful extent. On several of the bikes I have had I have checked the initial carburation, adjusted it if necessary and then apart from a fraction of a turn on the slow running screw never had to adjust it again. Some have said EFI does not fail or are not aware of EFI failures. That depends on what you regard as part of the EFI system. I have heard of regulator / rectifier failure on 4RTs Ossa have had a least one remapping exercise to cure problems and have had to fit a battery to make some bikes start. A carbed 2T will still start and run with either of the above failures. I run an EFI car and am quite happy to do so, the equivalent carb set up would be complex, expensive and need more maintenance. I have a couple of CV carbed 1100 road bikes, never given any problems but need balancing now and then. Would I prefer them to be EFI, no not really because it would be more difficult to diagnose and costly to fix if it went wrong. Don't you get tired of repeating yourself over and over again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 New fuel pump for an Ossa, £280....and you have to take the engine out. Never known gravity to fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Not the same as an original yzf one which are £180ish I reckon there's a difference in quality .Engine out job to change it on an Ossa too.4rt ones don't seem to give trouble and I bet they don't use the ebay ones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Multiple posters on this forum that have stated it's the same as a YZ-F pump for $25 off ebay. If you have to remove the engine to fit, I wouldn't trust a fleebay quality item. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 The issue of carbs leaking fuel is easily sorted, and should be immediately because it would usefully improve fuel consumption as well. The overflow pipes are led into catch chamber and from there raised back to the tank using a diaphragm or similar simple pump. This closed system would also prevent water ingress to carb. This topic is now up to #168 and some posters are making assertions, misquoting me or asking questions that have already been answered. Briefly I will cover some again. The reasons for switching to EFI on 4T do not generally apply to 2T so quoting Bous bike as a reason for 2T EFI is not valid. Yamaha produce both 2 and 4 stoke MX bikes, the 4T have EFI the 2T does not - What do Yamaha know? If there was consensus (in trials) that EFI gave a competitive advantage on 2T it is a fair bet that Gasgas, Sherco and Beta would have introduced it some time ago. The question is not does EFI work - it can be made to. But the full benefits of EFI can never be realised on a trials bike for reasons I have posted previously. In excess of 40 years working on vehicles I have never come across a carb problem that could not be sorted easily and cheaply. Contrast this with EFI where in the same period I have known problems that have been challenging to diagnose (to say the least) and have had repair costs frequently in the £several hundreds or £thousand +. What has come across in this and other topics is that quite a few do not understand and cannot set up carbs. Many probably do not realise that a carb compensates for changes in atmospheric temperature and pressure to a useful extent. On several of the bikes I have had I have checked the initial carburation, adjusted it if necessary and then apart from a fraction of a turn on the slow running screw never had to adjust it again. Some have said EFI does not fail or are not aware of EFI failures. That depends on what you regard as part of the EFI system. I have heard of regulator / rectifier failure on 4RTs Ossa have had a least one remapping exercise to cure problems and have had to fit a battery to make some bikes start. A carbed 2T will still start and run with either of the above failures. I run an EFI car and am quite happy to do so, the equivalent carb set up would be complex, expensive and need more maintenance. I have a couple of CV carbed 1100 road bikes, never given any problems but need balancing now and then. Would I prefer them to be EFI, no not really because it would be more difficult to diagnose and costly to fix if it went wrong. Do you think the 24m euro debt Gas Gas have on their balance sheet may restrict R&D spend ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_earle Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 From the environmental side my bike leaks mainly out of the breather rather than the overflow (Keihin), I wouldn't want to connect a pump to that!!!!! The solution it to ban endos or disconnect my front brake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 One way valve fitted to the breather stops that and costs less than a tenner. Keihins spill a lot if fuel though when pointed downhill or bike is layed over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Assuming you mean the tank breather ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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