Acu Rule Tsr22a, Stop Is A 1 Etc

[scorpa3]

.

The truth is the FIM doesn't know what next seasons rules will be.

Motorcycle trials is nothing like world championship trials, the more you try and make the two the same, the result will be less participation in both.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spot on Ish, let the circus also know as the World Championship do what they like & let the rest of us ride no stop. Make the rules straight forward & the riders will come.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, and the newcomers and Youth riders will all learn to keep moving otherwise they will get a five. AND... the best riders will still be the best riders.

[neonsurge]

So we're advocating two different sports now?

[scorpaf]

and half a dozen riders will have a low score by persuading (read: arguing or intimidating) the observer. Whilst others do indeed learn, and up their game, to ensure they don't get a five.

[perce]

So we're advocating two different sports now?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haven't you realised it's been like that for years?

[shercool]

I would hate it if trials went completly non stop, it just p****s me off when you try and push through a hard section just to save a couple of marks only to be told that you stopped for a split second ! I think it would be better like the WTC is now. Club trials wouldnt have to be set out any different, if someone wanted to ride a section non stop then let them, if the next person wanted to break the section up a bit then let them too, wheres the harm in that. And would you really need a timekeeper in club trials, i cant see that many people wanting to spend a couple of minutes in a section in my area really.

[neonsurge]

So we're advocating two different sports now?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haven't you realised it's been like that for years?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well yeah, but I assumed that the purpose of this thread was to discuss ways of bringing the world and national/club rule variations closer together. Now it seems that the majority opinion is that they should be pushed further apart or at least that the ACU should continue with the attitude "screw the FIM, we'll do things our way." Not saying that's a bad thing necessarily, it's just that this is going to start going around in circles pretty soon.

Are we absolutely sure that the we're looking at this issue coldly and cleanly, without letting tradition or nostalgia cloud our opinions?

[the artist formerly known as ish]

My point is the FIM keep changing the rules to try and solves problems in world championship trials, most of these problems don't arise at club level.

Stu is correct in wanting all clubs to be on the same page, but I don't think he is correct in useing the FIM rules to get them all on the same page. I have found over the last few years the FIM have had a meeting at the start of the new year and often rule changes are made, so clubs all have the 05 AGM and decide to go along with the FIM rules, only to find in two month time those rules have changed.

I think looking at which clubs are doing well and what rules they are using is a better indicator for clubs than trying to follow an ever changing set of FIM rules.

We can all go watch world championship trials and still marvel at what they can do on a motorcycle, without having to copy them to the letter on rules, cater for the majority not the minority.

[sting32]

My point is the FIM keep changing the rules to try and solves problems in world championship trials, most of these problems don't arise at club level.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I dont understand, Even in the olden golden days if you stopped with your balance it was NOT a 5. Sure it might been harder to stop and balance but mainly because I dont recall trying to learn it, like we do now... Anyrate, why would you all want to take that away?

I read up quite a few posts, that they have a hard time finding observers?

Anyway, so Im asking who is doing the judging (observing?).. Over here ALL club members are available to judge. We judge each other over here, we ride AM classes and PM classes (split them up by population and skill more or less), So lower classes ride in the morning judged by upper classes then we switch. I cannot imagine doing it any other way, but I would love to see it...

So you all over there, you bring out the Wife/girlfriends to do the Observing/judging ? Heck, mine goes shopping while Im riding :santawink:

[scorpa3]

Interesting idea.

AM & PM trials, that makes for a long day.

As a regular trial organiser, I just can't imagine asking our experts to turn up and observe the Clubmen at 10am when they aren't going to ride until 2pm.

Then asking the clubman to finish riding and stand around soaking wet, muddy and cold for another three hours in the rain observing the Experts.

I might be wrong, but if I tried this idea I have a feeling I would be the only person to turn up.

Plus I would be clearing the course in total darkness at the end.

Still an interesting idea though.

Anyone else think it could work in the UK?

[stuartc]

Eee, got some folk moving ere eh!

I just think that whatever rules we do have we should be the same across the UK, so we have got to have a standard rule.

Every weekend the same question arises (and sometimes 1/2 way thro a trial "What rules are we riding today?"

Now that is the riders fault, they should read the regs, however most trials riders can't read or write.

I know, I read the entry forms etc!

Mr J Bloggs

Harrogate

on the envelope for results, then they are ringing up Tuesday,

"Where's my results?" Some dont even get posted cos if I can't read em how is Postman Pat supposed to?

The FIM is supposed to be run by the unions/federations that belong to it.

That means they have a say in decisions. The same goes for the ACU and clubs / centres that to belong to it.

So tell me WHO tells the FIM what rules riders want to run under?

Is it the elite 5 riders, the manufacturers, or what?

Head down and waiting for some flak.

[the artist formerly known as ish]

The FIM is supposed to be run by the unions/federations that belong to it.

That means they have a say in decisions. The same goes for the ACU and clubs / centres that to belong to it.

So tell me WHO tells the FIM what rules riders want to run under?

Is it the elite 5 riders, the manufacturers, or what?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I asked the FIM a question on the same lines Stu, "when making changes to trials rules, does the affect it could have on the clubman get taken into consideration" the answer was! "we are supposed to take the clubman into consideration, but in reality we don't"

Some clubs have seen the light and done what is best for thier club members, I'm a clubman and want to go ride my bike on a weekend and have a bit of fun.

I'm sure the paying punter is worth more to factories, importers, dealers, than the the sponsored rider in the long run.

[stuartc]

So as I say Ish, who runs the FIM?

The fat cats that travel the world at no cost,

hard as it is for them :-)?

Or me, you, or J Bloggs from Harrogate that can't write?

Let the riders have a say, and I dont meant the 5 big boys.

Lets get the sport into some sort of respectable order!

Some observers round here will NOT observe FULL No stop

Some always observe full NO stop even when it is TSR22a.

Some do what they want.

Some riders will not ride full no stop.

At our poll last Xmas, 96% were in favour of FIM type rules.

By the way Happy Christmas thi old bugg3r

[scorpa3]

So as I say Ish, who runs the FIM?

The fat cats that travel the world at no cost,

hard as it is for them :-)?

Or me, you, or J Bloggs from Harrogate that can't write?

Let the riders have a say, and I dont meant the 5 big boys.

Lets get the sport into some sort of respectable order!

Some observers round here will NOT observe FULL No stop

Some always observe full NO stop even when it is TSR22a.

Some do what they want.

Some riders will not ride full no stop.

At our poll last Xmas, 96% were in favour of FIM type rules.

By the way Happy Christmas thi old bugg3r

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have I got this right then? If the FIM decide to go full non stop and the World Trials Chappies all start riding non stop (which they of course would, to great effect, no problem)many people would refuse to ride and observe and club trials would suffer?

[timp]

Its good that Stuart got this discussion off about this problem and giving us old ones something to really moan about!!

Recently I was told by one of the UK importers that that the bike manufacturers want no-stop trials, also all or most of the UK importers would rather have no-stop.(sure someone will tell me if i'm wrong!)

The importers are mainly ex top riders with a vast amount of experience between them. They know what is good for the sport.

To allow riders to be stationary without penalty, with or without timing in the section, is a step back to the bad old days. Every rider who can stop, balance and hop will do it if its an advantage for them. So straight away we are back to the old delays at the sections where some not so superstar stops, hops, sumps out on a rock, picks his nose, talks to his minder, revs his bike to the limit to make sure everyone in the area is watching and jumps up the 5' step. Then 90% of the entry can't get through the section without paddling!

At the moment he gets a 1 for stopping. it may not be perfect but it works and tends to keep the sections flowing in a fashion. Now if he wants a clean he keeps moving, does his trick stuff on the move which is far more impressive than having to stop to do it.

Looking at the entries for trial nowadays it certainly suits beginners as it is.

AS regards timers for the observers I find its bad enough finding 12 pencils that work without having to provide electronic stop watches as well

Not really heard many problems with the two sets of rules running side by side at the moment so leave it be till the FIM go full no-stop.It won't be long!!

Mark T

[atomant]

Here we go - in at the Deep end

I will attempt to make a case why no stop should NEVER come back into the sport.

[1] The Youth

A lot of new riders coming into the sport are from a generation where trials cycles are commonplace and balancing/hopping/endo's etc are all skills that they learn. Yes it may be possible to adapt to doing these skills on the move but then it becomes difficult to see if they have stopped or not.

These kids worship the skills of Raga and Dougie and the like. - If they looked at Sammy Miller with all due respect, they wouldn’t think it was anything special. Sad but true

[2]Technology

Everyone knows bikes today are way easier to ride than anything 20 years ago. They give the rider the option to express his/her skills in a way not possible before. Keeping a bike moving through a section as the main criteria limits the possibility to do this.

[3]Terrain

Some of us simply don’t have the right type of terrain to allow non-stop.

For expert sections in particular, we purposely put in tighter turns to ensure they have to hop in to position to add to the difficulty. Making it a no stop in some venues would make it very hard to make something that was testing enough.

My general view on most things is not to look back and keep looking forward. I have ridden some of the easier sections at a trial that Ross Danby rides and cleaned them, but when he does it its elegant and stylish and a pleasure to watch! Nothing like what mine is and for me I like to watch that!

So I say design the rules around these skills, not what it was like 30 year ago!!