old trials fanatic Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 (edited) Well guys what happens where you come from. This has happened at the last two trials i have attended and it's ruining the event and devalues the hard work people have put in laying a course. Also how do you encourage people to observe. Help needed in my centre or it's all going to fold. Tried to post a poll but failed so options are: 1. If there are only 5 observers they observe 5 sections then move onto the next 5 sections. 2. Riders observe each other. 3. More laps of less sections. 4. Only observed sections to count. 5. Refuse to start the trial till there are enough observers. 6. Ask riders to give up their ride. 7. Give up and go home. Also what do you do for the next trial ? How do other centres manage ? How do you make sure there are enough observers. Edited July 9, 2006 by Old trials fanatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 The North East Centre used to have a number of trials with more than 10 sections but we now generally stick to 4 laps 10 sections. sometimes we really have 4 laps of eight as we use double subs which one observer can manage. Personally I dislike riders observing riders as you dont get consistent observing. I wouldn't like to do fewer sections than 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coxy Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 try giving the observers an award for giving up their time like if a rider could bring an observer then his ride would be free for that day or if someone can observe then he will be paid say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endo kid Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 a club we ride only sets out five section and you ride five times in the mornig and then in the afternoon you ride the same sections but in reverse that way you only need five observers and it works very well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy m Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 Our club had a similar situation, and its not getting easier. We had 3 observers and 10 sections. So 7 riders started by observing and waited for a designated rider to reach them and then change over. It was a bit of a slow start but it worked and got us out of the s***. We are going to move to the punch card system where you dont need observers, you ride around in groups and have an observer for the group who is riding the trial and would be observed by another member of the group. I am told it works well, must admit I have not tried it myself though. Some of our members have and say its the way to go. Good luck. HEREFORDSHIRE CLASSIC TRIALS CLUB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gii Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 It is difficult but there are a few things you can do to reduce the problem. I don't like riders observing riders, it's not what the sport is about, it leads to cheating, and generally detracts from the enjoyment of the event. The first thing to realise is that it is the responsibility of the organising club to provide observers when they organise an event. This is not a dig at clubs, it is just a statement of fact. I have been at a trial when the trials sec got all the riders together and said 'right, we've marked 10 sections out and you've only come up with 7 observers, what do you think about that?' My thought was - well you've made a hash of it then. It is not the responsibility or concern of a rider who has paid his entry fee to the organising club to worry about where the observers are coming from. I say the above as a trials sec for a club in the NE ACU centre which regularly organises trials with 12 or 13 sections. We plan our trials, we discuss how many observers we will need and 2 weeks before the event we start contacting potential observers to check on their availability. If we are going to have 12 sections, I like to have 8 or 9 observers 'in the bag' before the event, then we only have to find 3 or 4 on the day. Other clubs do it other ways, in one very small club (small in terms of regular riders) the normally active riders observe, this is probably easier to agree in a small club - they all give up their ride. The biggest club with the most riders and trials has a very persuasive guy mugging for observers - he can be seen jogging alongside cars before they have parked, but because they have so many trials and he knows who the good bets are he is very successful. Inducements such as bring an observer get a free ride don't seem to work well, if the wife, girfriend, boyfriend etc doesn't like observing, then saving the rider a tenner wont induce them, they will just stay at home. The most successful way I have found is book em early and confirm (twice) close to the date. If you really can't get observers, why not give a date up to a training day and hire a couple of coaches? They seem very popular in this centre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 Most clubs in the Yorkshire centre refund the entry or part of it. Some have a draw where three to five obserbers get the fee back. The result is that in the Yorkshire centre we tend to have more than we need, excepting England world cup games. You cannot be satisfied however and the more that are available the better off you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gii Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 Mmm, We have observers prizes, and my club feeds the observers from the burger van. Never felt it helped get observers in the first place, just shows appreciation. Bit like riders thanking observers on the last lap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpa3 Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 In Stratford-Upon-Avon Club trials, we give riders who bring along an Observer a free entry. I agree that this is unlikely to be enough to motivate everyone to do it, however it makes me feel a lot better about asking! Droping the number of sections is an option, but we are down to 10 now just because of the observer situation. We became so 'hacked off' with the problem (it's always the same few doing the asking and being asked) that we agreed to simply stick the spare boards out at the start and let riders observe themselves. This may not be the best solution but it sure takes a lot of stress out of the day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonty Posted July 9, 2006 Report Share Posted July 9, 2006 I think that, in a club situation, you should put all the boards out for each section. As the riders reach each unmanned section then someone (usually the older and more experienced members) will pick it it up and mark for riders coming through and hand the board on to subsequent riders. During the course of the event there will generally be some spectators- friends or relatives of riders who will pick a board up and stay for the duration. Having attended club trials over the last 6 or 7 years with my son I can only remember one alleged incident of cheating. In a club situation people generally know who can do what and who can't. I think this is infinitely better than reducing the number of sections or laps etc. The pressure should be brought to bear on riders who don't know the rules. I have picked up many observers boards in the last few years which indicated that a particular rider has scored a 4! Ignorance of the rules is no excuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpaf Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 I've attended 27 trials this year, ridden one and observed at one. That's 25 times I could have observed but didn't. The reson being the amount of crap you get from the riders for observing them correctly. You know the sort of stuff, the rider who didn't stop, didn't go backwards or didn't lean on that tree (or just never bothered to study the rulebook) etc. If I have to stand for 5 plus hours just counting how many times the riders put their feet down in the section (which is what the riders seem to want you to do) then I'm sorry it's not going to happen, it's just too boring. Observing correctly to the ACU rules (whichever set your riding to) is a bit more interesting. Many riders are all to capable of riding the sections feet up and its only the more technical infringements that ever seem to squeeze any marks from them and at least involves the observer in the process. So in my view, if the riders want observers they should show a bit more appreciation and don't argue with the observer. The observer didn't write the rulebook - hes just the mug standing there upholding it! On the subject of trials with no observers (ie riders marking riders), well whats the point, you get no consistency whatsoever. Personally I wouldn't even bother riding. I take my hat off though in appreciation of all the observers who I see week in week out at the many trials we attend, especially those that somehow manage to pull off that feat of marking 'harsh' but technically correct. 3 cheers for the observers without whom there is no trial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonsurge Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 (edited) Can't offer any solutions to the problem of getting observers at events but what I will say is that as a (bad) rider, I've found observing to be an excellent way of learning what works in certain types of sections and weather conditions and what doesn't, getting to know other riders in your club (and from further afield) and I honestly believe that it's helping me to become a better rider myself. If you know the area where the trial is taking pace and you've observed there before, try to get a section that has a different type of section to the one you last observed to see different techniques in action. The benefits are obviously cumulative and wouldn't disagree that there's no substitute for real bike time but I've found that a cycle of ride one, observe one has worked for me. I'm still not troubling the top 10 in my class by any stretch of the imagination but I think I might one day get there. I've never really had problems with agumentative riders while observing (might have something to do with the "front" value of being a 6'2" fat git) but in the rare occasions when it has happened I simply call the next rider into the section and ignore the ranting idiot stood behind me. They soon get bored and move on and interestingly, it never seems to be any of the "top lads". Get out and observe! Edited July 10, 2006 by neonsurge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilco Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 Simple,10 section's 5 observer's,Do 5 section's in the morning stop for lunch have a couple of beer's then do the other 5 section's after lunch sorted. It does shock me however when a rider see's it his right to mouth off the observer's when they drop a foot and then tries to get hard with the observer no need for it.the rider would get a five off me straight away and a big F*** off mate. At the end of day i allway's make a point of going round and thanking the observer for the day,without them we may aswell leave the bike in the garage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old trials fanatic Posted July 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 (edited) Thanks for the contributions guys. Personally i detest the idea of riders observing riders it's just wrong on so many counts. As for groups of 5 riders marking each other thats little better. I would much sooner ride five sections then have a break and ride the other five in the afternoon. Make a day of it. Why not? Always used to have a lunch break in the "good old days". I observed at a few trials before i started back just to get a "feel" for things. I did suggest to a couple of Club secretaries that for a rider to score points towards a club championship then they must have observed at a trial in that year. They could nominate the event beforehand. Ideal if there is a particular event they didnt like riding at all that much. Did also sit wondering at work, it's ok i HATE my job, what it would take to drag somebody away from the TV on a Sunday and you should at least cover their expenses. One of the clubs i ride at already refunds the entry fee for a rider bringing an observer but they still struggle to get half a dozen observers. If it means that entry fees have to go up to bung observers Edited July 10, 2006 by Old trials fanatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gii Posted July 10, 2006 Report Share Posted July 10, 2006 (edited) Some interesting points have come up in this discussion The most pertinent being that not many people actually want to observe. In my centre (NE ACU) most regular observers are ex riders in their 50's and 60's. Close behind them come Parents and Wives (No husbands at present). The most oft quoted reason for not wanting to observe is the abuse from riders. Second is the length of time they have to stand out. IMHO abuse is mainly (though not allways) from riders 16-25 years of age. In fairness this is I guess the most competitive sector. If you don't make it in this age bracket it's unlikely that you ever will. Plus It's probably the most impolite time of your life! Close behind this group of riders is their supporters. These can range from 14 year old girl/boy friends to 80 year old grandparents. They tend to go on at you for longer because they are not riding a bike. In my experience because of this they can be worse than the riders, especially in national events. It's no fun telling a 75 year old Granny to be quiet and leave you alone, Whereas I'll cheerfully threaten a 16 year old rider with a thump and a grin! How do you combat observer abuse? Well it's difficult I think. When I'm Trials sec I turn up at the venue at 08.30 am, this may mean leaving the house at 07.15 am. Start time is 11.00am Riders start parking up at 09.00am I normally stop taking entries at around 11.30 am when the queue has gone. - this is half an hour after start time (some riders whom I have seen eating burgers at 10.00am don't approach me untill the queue is down to 1 or 2 people - well after the start time, other riders don't arrive at the venue before 11.00am, they then have a chat with their pals and buy their breakfast from the burger van). By now I want to get on my bike and I want to ride. Normally I get called back from walking section 1 to take some more entries (like 11.45-50am) sometimes it's section 2! Then I ride the trial. Curiously despite being last to start I get round in reasonable time - my club states a time that section 1 will close Typically 3.00pm. Riders moan about it, particularly the experts who will eventually finish in the top ten but out of the top three) but I've always finished well before section 1 closes - a whole lap in hand. Then I'll get changed, load the bike up, sort out the entry forms and envelopes and settle down to wait for, the observers. These poor souls have waited for the last rider, observed him, packed away their flask and observers cards, walked their (often physically difficult) section pulling the many flags from the 3 routes marked and then carried the wole lot back, perhaps a mile or more. It's now around 5.00pm, I've been there since 08.30am, I don't ask them for a report on who has been obnoxious to them or what was wrong with the section. I grab the cards off them and tear off to my parents place. It's 6.30pm and I start calculating the results. I've got a good routine and spreadsheet for doing the technical bit. My dad helps by going through the entry forms deciphering the details there (how does the postman manage?) and by about 8.00pm I'm finished, the results are printed for photocopying and I can post the results on this site. I get my tea and drive home. By the time I get home the contributing photographers have sent me their days work, I review them and send them in to Andy then go to bed. Next day I photocopy the results at work then spend a couple of hours in the evening folding them into envelopes then sticking stamps on. Day after that I post them. That night I do the accounts work for the meeting. Takes 1-2 hours depending on the entry size and how many new members we aquired durng the meeting. I guess then I should phone the observers and ask them what problems they have encountered and who if anyone they want to complain about. Trouble is I want to forget about the event, I'm looking forward to next weekends trial not looking back to last weekend You will see from the above that for the observers, it's easier to make an excuse for not observing than to complain to me. Sensible suggestion please Edited July 10, 2006 by GII Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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