54 replies to this topic

[AS iow]

Progress at last then. John it would be good if you could come to the IOW this weekend to watch our British A/B round and the British indoor trial. It would be a good chance for you to meet and talk to people at the sharp end of this debate. I will personaly refund your boat fair and sort out <mention of this company is not permitted on Trials Central> if you can come.
It looks to me as if we have two issues here
1 youth training ( domestic )
2 Help with international events.

Best to have two seperate funds and ACU decide how much they wish to spend on each.

I know that most people at the British youth championship trials feel that youths who are good for thier age should be helped with training, and not because they are 15 IE Ben Morphet etc. etc.

Help with international trials should only come later if the rider has reached a set standard, or scored championship points at internationl level.

I think that only the training should be free and not the transport to it, with set venues north & south ( Hookswood & Dod park for example)

[AtomAnt]

I got involved with running BHMCC 2 years ago when I got back into the sport. The clubs trials had a large contingent of kids and kid/father entries – probably around 50%.
Shortly after, I saw Ross Danby ride and was amazed at his skill level at such a young age. This is when I got interested in helping the kids/youths out.

To see the smiles on the face of a little kid when he/she has just cleaned a section is a joy to behold. Also, at the end of trial, we have had these kids come up and say thank you and mean it, unlike the stark contrast of some of the ‘mature’ rides who do nothing but moan about it being too hard or a variety of other things I could think of hence I would rather do stuff for the kids than the adults.

So, I have been giving this some thought and can think of some ways of incorporating training with financial subsidies which would help out.

In relation to training we have the following requirement I believe :-

[1] The kids who may be able to get to Youth Expert at club level
[2] The kids who are doing national rounds
[3] The kids who are excelling doing national rounds, and finishing in the top half a dozen
[4] The lads/lasses who are currently doing European/WTC rounds and finishing in the top half a dozen

Level one could be done at club level with the help of the clubs good experts if they were willing but needs the clubs to organise it. This may be too much to add to the current huge workload as I know from experience but just a suggestion.

ACU assistance could be provided by subsidising the youth entry to a trial AT CLUB LEVEL. Father & son/daughter entries get expensive especially when there are 2 kids or more and restricts the intake. Our club subsidises the second/third/fourth youth by £3 an entry. People who would like to see the trials root helped out, this may be a way of doing it?

Level two – The lads/lasses doing national rounds could do with some professional training and again help out the costs on entrance fees.

Level three - The lads/lasses doing national rounds could do with some higher level professional one to one training and again help out the costs on entrance fees.

Level four – these lads/lasses could be the next Lampkin, Sanz . So a higher level of one to one training with the best available would be required. Including sports psychology, diet and a fitness program if possible.

The ACU could also look to put a sponsorship package together that it could send out to advise the parents how to go about promoting their lads/lasses to get some additional income. I would be prepared to help the best youths out in relation to website promotion.

Ok, this may be a bit extravagant for some but you don’t ask, you don’t get

I have quite a few more ideas on the business front but saving them up for later

One final note - there are lots of parents who could benefit from talking to John on these forums . I ask.. where are you ? Join the discussion and have your say..

[PERCE]

John Collins, on Oct 12 2006, 12:24 AM, said:

Reality - Old Trials Fanatic and a few others have stuck their head above the parapet and said what they think. Others - more emotive have replied/ disagreed
I have to tell you - that in the majority of Clubs - the view is very much that of Old Trials.

If you did a poll in our Club - I will bet my house the majority would agree with Old Trials Fanatic - that their money - to any great extent should not be subsidising youngsters to ride on Int stage.

I am fairly sure this is typical acropss Clubs in UK - certainly not all - but a large number of riders - and Trials Central posts seem to also indicate this - there will be conflicting views.

Any attempt to divert money from levies - will be criticised by many. Fact not fiction.

I can 100% confirm what John has said here. Support of local riders to attend Nationals or provide training etc etc has been a regular discussion at our Clubs monthly meeting for some considerable time. The whole issue is a minefield.
The only good suggestion I've heard this year is for 'elite' training, if you are going to fund this in any way the decision on a squad to be trained must be taken by the qualifed TRAINERS. No parents, no old duffers on committees

[John Collins]

I did a reply earlier this morning trying to progress what we have already discussed - it was just after breakfast - but it seems to have got lost - or more likely I have pressed som wrong buton somewhere - so god knows where it has ended up.

Will try to find it or re-do it later

[John Collins]

Think found out what happened to my previous post – have been doing calendar for 07 and using white font – as default – so TC has probably had its first invisible post!

First – thanks for invite to IOW – but this weekend I am actually riding in deepest Devon – a 4 hour trip each way – and after about an hour will surely realise I would have been better in IOW.

Very good post Atom Ant – and the sort of ideas I feel we need to be looking at.

I totally agree – Level 1 & 2 Training – best carried out at Club Centre level – and is already being done on a huge scale across UK. There is a Training Permit available (admittedly – to access this one has to have a licensed instructor – and there certainly was a lot of controversy over this – but I think most Centres like my own – if they are keen on Youth Training would have sent suitable Expert type riders from their Centre – and paid for them – to have 3 year licence) There is then a cost saving for Clubs/centres running such an event.

In actual fact – in order to support youth riders – and of course the scenario where a parent has perhaps two children riding – the insurance premium for Youth riders in ALL ACU trials is 50% the rate of an adult.

So – the Club or Centre can run such a Training Day – fairly cheaply - and of course many already do.

At the next stage suggested - Level 3 – is where sometimes problems have arisen.
We have tried to provide National Training – to a Squad in addition to the overseas support.

I think this may have clouded things in the past – and made difficulties. – and possibly this National Training needs to be for the identified Level 3 – and not aimed at the better riders who we are supporting at UEM /World level In order not too dilute the finance of the overseas support too much – I personally feel – at least to try in 2007 – this National training is limited to a fairly small number of events.

Possibly a couple of Training/ Assessment type weekends arranged – with a suitable coach – or two if we have more than about a dozen riders – paid for by ACU. I know from my Enduro attempts that it is this National level training that is easy to put on paper – but a lot harder getting people together with venue/date/Instructor etc/. However I am sure Mick Wren would be willing to try to accommodate this – even it were only a few times a year.

Finally to the top level – or level 4 - if we are to try to emulate the Spanish etc (except for lorry!) I think here a small number of riders would need to be selected as the ACU U23 Squad. They would enter as this – and entry fees and insurance for themselves – could be paid for from ACU budget.

These riders – in order for us to restore a little National pride etc – would be issued with ACU Training Squad shirts etc – which they would be expected to wear at UEM /World events.

If necessary – as a further help administration wise – I see no great difficulty in these riders being entered and for from HQ.

Additionally – as long as we have a fairly small squad – I then think a contribution toward fuel costs/travel could be made for each event. There are 5 UEM events scheduled I think – and as 4 of these are the day before World events – obviously any help with travel would help with both.

It is at present I must say our main intention to concentrate on European Championship – and I think it is here where our help with entry fee’s etc would need to be aimed.

So – my ideas fall in quite closely with AtomAnts view. Over to you all

[Nigel Dabster]

u 23 should be u21, if they haven't done it by then.

Its not a lorry they need its a helpful person, will elaborate later.

Alongside this they need championships to select and hone talent.
Include A class in expert line at brit champs do away with experts class make this a junior champ a la fim wtc ie u21 only, rest can ride no award then championship class as is.

[John Collins]

Probably U21 is correct - I was thinking with my Enduro training hat on - where the rules are all built around U23.

I see no possibility frankly of dropping the Brit Expert Champ and turning it in a Youth Champ .

The Youth Champ must cater for ALL youth riders =- not just the elite who wish to compete on Int stage - which is now those we seem to all be agreeing we are going to try to help.

Making a super hard - Champ would help these perhaps - but where would the rest of the less able riders go ?

The Brit Expert Champ will remain - and the whole format and reasoning behind all our Championships is probably the subject for another post.

In 2006 50 plus riders scored points, 70 plus rode in various rounds and almost 80 applied for priority entries at start of year.

This will remain for foreseeable future the Brit Expert Champ.

The current Brit Champ allows for 5 Youth riders too participate - and they do - and these usually tend to be the ones that are going off to ride in Int events - so they gain the experience with the Experts.
I do not believe it need the tag of " Champ" bolted on. They can easily establish just how well they are doing in relation to the Adult Expert – and indeed TMX has often indicated this and given them the kudos deserved.

After requests at last years forum - we tried very hard not to clash the Brit Champ with current A & B Champ - and we will certainly try to do so again. Same applies to Novogar.

As John Shirt said in paper some time ago this fair opportunity to find a level that suits them and then aim for it.

This is in effect gives the Youth A riders the series of Brit A Champ events to aim for ( and keep sponsors happy etc) - plus another 6-8 Brit Champ events ( top 5 riders).

We also then have a whole host of excellent National throughout the UK. The Organisers can set the severity – and riders can and will vote with their feet ( or backsides on the bike).

If the Youth was combined with Brit Champ Expert - they would only have 6-8 Champ events in the year to really aim for - surely this is a decrease in opportunity to shine - as well as adverse effect on whole of Youth scene.

[AtomAnt]

I think its hard to knock the current set-up of the Youth A,B,C&D series as its producing some of the worlds best riders dont you think? I do think the ability thing comes in to play here though. If a youth is capable of riding 'adult' sections then they should be allowed too even for no award. The experience gained competing with the adult best of British would be invaluable.

IMHO

[Nigel Dabster]

Disagree strongly and think that an under 21 championship should replace the expert championship as this has little value except for those on the way down? These riders could have an adult expert champ as well I suppose it would be on the same course so what ever.
But I see the likes of dan thorpe already having the nationals to ride (20) and novogars which should also be eased up a bit to give the centre lads and soft southerners something so the present expert lads are not short on rides.
However for youths most definately the A's should be moved up to this level and the b's and ladies and practice on the Saturday.

Funding for youths should be for up to and including 18 years by which time it should be clear who will and will not make it. Take a look at it this year and you can see who is moving upwards and who is not. There has to be some money to help this elite as they are the ones who we need to be figureheads for the sport the dougies of the future.
Entry fees and training is an absolute must and unless I am mistaken whilst jack Challoner may have had 2 days with jim (great but is that all?????) I don't think Ross Alexz Bert lee et al have had anything at all, money training or whatever, I could be wrong but if it is correct then it is a travesty, and should be of more concern than any good ideas we may have here. John?

As far as a truck is concerned its not so much that which is not required of course it would be great but the cost is something that could not be considered currently, but its that we could make do with alot less and still give the lads a great help and make ther route to sucess a bit easier and produce better results.

At one of the euro/wtc rounds I helped a rider swap tyres and Julian Wigg is often asked for technical help. This is a role that could be done from the back of a transit or small motorhome maybe just for a month or so when the events in Europe are close together, someone with a bit of technical ability could do say four rounds in Europe? Don't know who it would be but maybe someone like colin Boniface, who knows?

I would see this as a bit of a Thierry Michaud role someone who goes round very proactively on the ground as it were helping to organise the British lads and says here are your start times you know its five hours 3 for the first lap, everything ok with the bike, you know what the sections are like any worries, coach and mentor/ mechanical helper etc???.
In poland a couple of the Brits were prepping their own bikes, no problem with that except they were very amateur and didn't have enough experience.
Surely there is scope for a training day or two to be facilitated by the ACU (in February???) and get someone like Mick Danby or julian ( two examples) who knows their way round bikes before the season starts and show them what is and isn't required.

Ditto minders a days instruction from a few, say Mart Lampkin Jim and Shaun of what they do etc etc. The cost versus benefit would be great surely?

Edited by Nigel Dabster, 14 October 2006 - 12:15 AM.

[Kinell]

Nigel Dabster, on Oct 13 2006, 06:15 PM, said:

Ditto minders a days instruction from a few, say Mart Lampkin Jim and Shaun of what they do etc etc. The cost versus benefit would be great surely

Bingo!

I've watched a fair few top level trials where minders are used and some of them appear to just run from one catching point to another. They do this without shouting out valuable advice/instruction/confidence boosting words of encouragement etc. Jim Lampkin and Ben Hemmo' are both very good riders in their own right but when Ben was minding for Doug last year he seemed to fade into the background a tad. WTC minding is a big job with a lot of responsibility - some relish it, some think "What the **** am I doing here?"

The 3 top minders listed above are certainly not shy of shouting to OR at their riders, they make one hell of a difference in my opinion. Some of the young, rising stars need a great minder at their back wheel at every trial but usually this very important team member is just someone like Dad, brother, mate, good mechanic or whoever is willing/able to get around the actual course. A training day in the art of minding for the Dads, brothers etc. could make a real difference (maybe?)

[Andy]

Kinell, on Oct 13 2006, 10:18 PM, said:

Jim Lampkin and Ben Hemmo' are both very good riders in their own right but when Ben was minding for Doug last year he seemed to fade into the background a tad.

A tad unfair on Ben. He had BIG boots to fill. Jim and Doug had worked together for years. It was always going to be daunting for him.

On another note, as Mr. Galway's self-appointed manager, all queries regarding his availability should be carried out through me. He is very busy out-of-season attending hen-nights and other ladies-only events due to his obvious sex-symbol status. We might be able to fit some training events in, but be warned - he doesn't come cheap!

[Kinell]

I agree and disagree, I even deleted the Ben comment once and then thought '**** it' so I put it back in again. No offence to Ben Hemmo and all the Dads, brothers, good mechanics out there who are trying their best to be a great minder...

[Old trials fanatic]

OK got to ask. What the hell is a minder? and why would you need / want one anyway? surely if they are what i assume they are then thet is "receiving outside assistance" and as such isnt that against the rules let alone the spirit of Trials?

I get this funny feeling i've missed something earth shatteringly crucial here. Whats that ? Oh yeah "sod off you old git"

OK i'll get me coat

Not something to do with Arfer Dailey is it?

[John Collins]

OK - We need to make some progress here - as we need to be trying to do lots of things - all desirable - but not all achievable without diluting others. I purposely have not included Championship format - this is surely for another post?

Training at home for 2007 - I have already stated that it was not at all satisfactory for 2006. Mick Wren who was in charge of it - has also stated the same.
However- please remember it was no-ones god given right to have training - nowhere is it enshrined in the ACU structure that our young trials riders are to receive training - it is something that has been attempted for quite a few years - and 2006 was not satisfactory - end of story.

Also while it is easy to bandy names about - and suggest who would be good to this or that - this will only work - if those people are willing to do it - and more importantly are available at the given time - it is usually the latter that causes the big problem - we all lead very busy lives - and weekends just always seem to be full of something or other. Especially when Int season starts

I know it is different - but as I can quote from my own experience - Enduro wise - where I manage U23 Squad I will. At the start of 2006 - I wrote out to about 12 -14 well known Enduro names - all either past top quality riders, Champions etc - all still associated with riders now , - some top World class mechanics - with a view to trying to establish more or less what has been suggested Trial wise - also the offer to send one - minder/mechanic /guro ( wrong words for Enduro - but you know what I mean) along to each UEM round.

After - 4 weeks - I hade only received one reply ( from one of the younger lads - who is still now riding in Brit Team) - with offer to help. I knew all the people personally - not just as ACU man - and at later stages some came and said they wished to help - but were just too busy. To date - nothing has happened - their weekends were just too full. It was not even a question of money.

To progress with what I think we have established - please tell me if we are wrong


First - we select an " Elite Squad" if you like - I agree that these do not need to be too old - certainly Under 21 - and certainly showing potential - we can debate this further.

It should not be too difficult to co-ordinate the first training weekend ( probably a Saturday) - where Mick Wren would get these together.

At this session - their minder/mechanic/mentor/parent - could be present - and a Technical / Practical asession could be arranged - either by sharing experience - or if possible people with some good mechanical knowledge there to give advice. I do know that if you have 4 - 6 people with some technical acumen - it is possible that they all learn from each other - and just showing the way they do things - can lead to others showing a better /alternative way/

The squad riders - would have an indoor " classroom" session - going over rules/ regulations/ requirements - and also the proceedure we will adopt - and get office to adopt - for all entries to UEM /FIM in 2007 - because frankly some of this has been pathetic in past years.

We could also work out - exactly what the ACU delegate would be doing for them ( and all other ACU riders) of course at the event - and we could arrange - as other countries do - a format while at the event - eg set briefing with everyone after Jury meetings to disseminate correct info etc. Also a more organised approach to signing on, producing documents, sorting admin problems ( I already do this at UEM Enduro and it works well)

In fact - changing my mind - as I write - I actually see no reason why the above session should not be open to all riders - men or women - who are intending to compete in UEM/FIM next year.

If a suitable venue could be found - the riders could then use the aftetrnoon for example as a training session - and hopefully good coach could be found ( and paid for by ACU) - if the right one was found - this could also possibly be used as an instruction session for minders etc - or perhaps - someone else may be willing to do this.

The elite squad - once selected - would for 2007 - receive some financial help for each UEM round - certainly enough to pay entry fee's and insurance for each event - and hopefully some help toward travel.

I do not think it feasable to arrange a minder/mechanic for each rider - and this will just dilute finance. I kniow Thierry Michaud does it for French - he combines it with being French Jury delegate - and is on wage - this is not feasable .
I am afraid riders are going to have to sort this for themselevs - or why not the interested people meet up at the session I have talked about - and divise something for themselves - and therefore spread cost ?


Home training - will have to be reduced - and left very much to Clubs/Centres and individuals.

I believe there will still be scope to arrange at least one probably two training sessions for Women

I think in addition to the initial session I proposed with for UEM riders - there could be at least two National sessions - and subject to speaking to Mick Wren - I think these couild be for a fairly large number of up and comming riders - probably identified by Clubs and Centres - and invited to a National Training Session.

These are just my views - but for me the emphasis now needs to be on greater support for this " elite" squad of 4-6 riders.

A few specific National sessions for other riders with potential.

I "think" I now intend to do the same with the Enduro squad - so TC has probably had more influenec on the Enduro scene than on Trials ?

[rabie]

the fundamental problem with spending members money on youth is that the majority of members disagree!!! The inability to sumount the inescapbale fact, especailly when there are other more pertinant issues about affecting the majority mean this is a side issue. i could give a *** what you arrange internally but to get general funding you need to sell it to the masses (pre65s, wobblers, modern lads, etc) and they just aren't buying it