126 replies to this topic

[greeves]

I know there has allways been a big debate about pre65 bikes, specially when you come to speak about the Scottish pre65.

I would really like to LEAVE APART THE SCOTTISH PRE65 and speak just about the 21´st Century evolution of pre65 bikes, and were and when should this evolution stop (if it needs to be stopped...).

We can see what both technical and sportive rules are doing to the modern trials; will this happen with classic, specially pre categories??

To start the debate let me show the next example; this last weekend I went to Telford show, where you could see lots of pre65 bikes. ¿pre65 some of them? ¿really?

Just have a look to this two:





Ok yes, maybe both of them are tuned, that Francis Barnet can have a modern handlebar, an electronic ignition, a fork with spring/oil/air action, last generation shocks (spring/oil), and many more, but it really looks a pre65 bike, ins´t it?

That Sprite also is equiped with a lightwight material frame, cutted sub frame, cutted frame under the engine, tubeless, highly modified exhaust for better performance, Marzochi fork with pre65 sliders, slider´s "bridge", shocks with combined action spring/oil/air, lighweight yokes and hubs... and maybe so many things my eyes can´t see.

We could see in Telford those dry clutches with primary transmission by belt, and in the future what will we see in the pre65, pre72 or whatever bikes?

Is this 21´st century evoluton going to continue and will it be something really good for classic trials? Or will it happen as with modern trials that evolution has transformed the sport and sections in something almost impossible to to attempt for a standard pilot?

Edited by Greeves, 09 February 2012 - 12:09 PM.

[old trials fanatic]

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[old trials fanatic]

Hi Javier. Problem is who is going to scrutineer all the bikes entering an event? Now i dont know about in Spain, i have only ridden at Robregordo and i know there was a scrutineering of sorts there, but nobody here wants the job of scrutineering every bike so it is left to the rider who obviously wants the most competitive bike they can get and it goes on and on.

As an attempt to put the brakes on this i have introduced new rules classes and regulations at my club see www.peakclassic.co.uk look at the about you page to see new rules and regulations for this season. We have introduced a Trickshox class, we are possibly the first club to do this i dont know but i do know i have had a few phone calls already from riders protesting that their bike is now not eligable because of tubeless tyres extensive mods etc. I did point out that they could ride on a no award or points basis or they could ride in the new Trickshox class but they didnt seem very happy about that. I wonder why????

As i said earlier though unless you police it by having every bike scrutineered before the start of every trial and the rider instructed as to which class to ride in, assuming there is a class suitable, or ride on no award basis then you cant do ANYTHING about it! You also have to accept that some people will have a mardy and go home or just not come to your events then the club folds due to lack of support.

At the end of the day if left unchecked it will probably mean the end of the sport as we know it but what else can you do?

Jon V8 makes the point let anybody ride and it's no problem as they dont give out any awards anyway. It's a valid point but doesnt seem to have that competition factor that most look for.

Be interresting to read the comments to this one

[totalshell]

at yarkshire classic we have a clear set of rules ( some enough to make you scratch your head i 'll accept) and they have seen the club have a defined base ( we had a resolution to allow members over 80 ride on twinshocks.. which was unaminously voted down after much spluttering and reported heart attacks)
this clear rule set has meant that entries have increased and that bikes have frankly become better prepared and most are now to a concours condition as well as being the best that can be built, we ve also seen a steady growth in younger riders whose ability to ride big 4 strokes like modern bikes is to be applauded..
the secret if you crave sucess is to chose the class and build/ ride a bike appropiately. should bikes like the FB be encouraged absolutely definatley always.. should the sprite.. it does not meet several club rules but would be allowed to ride as a special in championship trials or as non competitive in pre unit trials..
most folk ride for one of two reasons .. to win or to take part.. the former would not ride the sprite as no one gains anything winning the non competitive class.. and would modify the fb as per greeves suggestions to make it competitive in the pre 70 twinshock class..

[jon v8]

Old trials fanatic, on 09 February 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

Hi Javier. Problem is who is going to scrutineer all the bikes entering an event? Now i dont know about in Spain, i have only ridden at Robregordo and i know there was a scrutineering of sorts there, but nobody here wants the job of scrutineering every bike so it is left to the rider who obviously wants the most competitive bike they can get and it goes on and on.

As an attempt to put the brakes on this i have introduced new rules classes and regulations at my club see www.peakclassic.co.uk look at the about you page to see new rules and regulations for this season. We have introduced a Trickshox class, we are possibly the first club to do this i dont know but i do know i have had a few phone calls already from riders protesting that their bike is now not eligable because of tubeless tyres extensive mods etc. I did point out that they could ride on a no award or points basis or they could ride in the new Trickshox class but they didnt seem very happy about that. I wonder why????

As i said earlier though unless you police it by having every bike scrutineered before the start of every trial and the rider instructed as to which class to ride in, assuming there is a class suitable, or ride on no award basis then you cant do ANYTHING about it! You also have to accept that some people will have a mardy and go home or just not come to your events then the club folds due to lack of support.

At the end of the day if left unchecked it will probably mean the end of the sport as we know it but what else can you do?

Jon V8 makes the point let anybody ride and it's no problem as they dont give out any awards anyway. It's a valid point but doesnt seem to have that competition factor that most look for.

Be interresting to read the comments to this one

Its true that I make the point that we dont have awards with Bath Classic - it does mean that as organisers we dont have to worry about trick bikes and accusations of cheating etc.BUT it does not mean there is no competition,the results go in TMX and up on our website etc,etc.
Actually we had a conversation at Telford on Sat where we talked about our own private competitions we have often just in our own minds.The ones where we work out which riders are of similar abilities and ride in the same class - so we pitch ourselves against them.I've done this ever since I started competing 27 years ago.
So there is competition there and LOTS of banter,mickey taking etc.All part of a fun day out,which is what we are trying to do.I was pestered last night at our club meet to write a report for our mag,part of this will be to reiterate my statements about keeping the sections sensible,to encourage older bikes out again.I firmly beleive that the majority of the problem is in marking out trials where you need a trick bike to get around.We all have our different ideas about what is good and bad in terms of bikes,I like to see bikes that show signs of having worked hard in their basically original form.
I also didnt realise how much people like to see big old bikes being used.Last summer we ran a trials demo at a local steam rally,which was well received.I took one of my Yams and my HT5,and it was very noticable how I could ride around the sections on my Yam and people would be watching.But fire up my Ariel and have a blat round and the crowd would double.... The other thing we did was to try out each others bikes over the weekend,which was good - but nobody wanted to ride my HT ! (It was the only pre-unit bike there)
So clearly 99% of this is about perception,here in the South West there are still plenty of mostly original Pre 65 bikes being regularly ridden - along with some very trick stuff too.
I dont think there is a single right or wrong answer,I'm just glad that around me there are plenty of trials to ride amongst similar minded riders.

[old trials fanatic]

jon v8, on 09 February 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

Its true that I make the point that we dont have awards with Bath Classic - it does mean that as organisers we dont have to worry about trick bikes and accusations of cheating etc.BUT it does not mean there is no competition,the results go in TMX and up on our website etc,etc.
Actually we had a conversation at Telford on Sat where we talked about our own private competitions we have often just in our own minds.The ones where we work out which riders are of similar abilities and ride in the same class - so we pitch ourselves against them.I've done this ever since I started competing 27 years ago.
So there is competition there and LOTS of banter,mickey taking etc.All part of a fun day out,which is what we are trying to do.I was pestered last night at our club meet to write a report for our mag,part of this will be to reiterate my statements about keeping the sections sensible,to encourage older bikes out again.I firmly beleive that the majority of the problem is in marking out trials where you need a trick bike to get around.We all have our different ideas about what is good and bad in terms of bikes,I like to see bikes that show signs of having worked hard in their basically original form.
I also didnt realise how much people like to see big old bikes being used.Last summer we ran a trials demo at a local steam rally,which was well received.I took one of my Yams and my HT5,and it was very noticable how I could ride around the sections on my Yam and people would be watching.But fire up my Ariel and have a blat round and the crowd would double.... The other thing we did was to try out each others bikes over the weekend,which was good - but nobody wanted to ride my HT ! (It was the only pre-unit bike there)
So clearly 99% of this is about perception,here in the South West there are still plenty of mostly original Pre 65 bikes being regularly ridden - along with some very trick stuff too.
I dont think there is a single right or wrong answer,I'm just glad that around me there are plenty of trials to ride amongst similar minded riders.

Well said Jon i wasnt knocking the format of your trials, i am even thinking about scrapping the awards myself, as obviously they are very sucessful. I do however think something needs to be done about the super trick creations both "pre65" and sadly also "twinshock" now appearing that ARE having an effect at many Classic trials. I dont have a definative answer but i am open to all suggestions and i just KNOW something needs to be done. I JUST WISH THE GOVERNING BODIES WOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT INSTEAD OF JUST LOOKING THE OTHER WAY WHILE ROME BURNS.

[trialsrfun]

Hi Greeves, I was told by someone close to the stand on which the Sprite? stood that engine apart the bike was totally newly made, mostly from titanium. It was said to have cost around £16,000 to complete. Personally I would prefer to see bikes more like the F/B on the first picture but maybe not with the pogo sprung saddle.

[charlie prescott]

HI GUYS.
Hi Jon, Hi OTF.
What more can I say I rest my Case's, Thanks guy's for thinking along the same lines.
Now how do we get the rest of the sport thinking like us ????? this is the big Question.?????
I will stick my neck out, but who will join me????
Regards Charlie.

[old trials fanatic]

charlie prescott, on 09 February 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

HI GUYS.
Hi Jon, Hi OTF.
What more can I say I rest my Case's, Thanks guy's for thinking along the same lines.
Now how do we get the rest of the sport thinking like us ????? this is the big Question.?????
I will stick my neck out, but who will join me????
Regards Charlie.

Charlie i think we both know in our heart of hearts that it HAS to come down from the governing bodies because like in the Miller Championship, just picked that one at random, it's only when there is a rule plain for all to see and that more importantly IS ENFORCED are the brakes put on some of the wilder creations. At the moment it's a free for all anything goes because none of the governing bodies will grasp the nettle and bring in an extremely long overdue ruling of what is and what is not allowed. Everybody bemoans the lack of genuine bikes but what is being done about it? It's not just Pre65 it's Twinshocks as well.

One other thing you keep hearing is "it's nothing that couldnt be done at the time" perhaps this is true however generally speaking it wasnt done by the majourity at the time. With hindsight we could back engineer anything but bikes were as they were back then because mostly we knew no better. My only concern is that people just throw a sheet over their old bikes because they feel there is no point in putting them up against these modern twinshocks which is what they really are.

Cant see the ACU doing anything about it can you? and so it snowballs out of control.

Edited by Old trials fanatic, 09 February 2012 - 10:47 PM.

[grahamjayzee]

Try this ide for size;

Anyone see the old Top Gear where James May competed in some club grass track race somewhere in Scandanavia? The car rules were really simple; do what you like, but if someone offers you £1000 for your car, you are obliged to sell it to them.

So, run an AWARD class and set a budget (maybe £2k is realistic).

I'd love to watch this being enforced on a muddy hillside, but it would soon flatten out the spec-chasing.

I'm just thinking out loud, but it's a thought...

Graham

[old trials fanatic]

GrahamJayzee, on 09 February 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

Try this ide for size;

Anyone see the old Top Gear where James May competed in some club grass track race somewhere in Scandanavia? The car rules were really simple; do what you like, but if someone offers you £1000 for your car, you are obliged to sell it to them.

So, run an AWARD class and set a budget (maybe £2k is realistic).

I'd love to watch this being enforced on a muddy hillside, but it would soon flatten out the spec-chasing.

I'm just thinking out loud, but it's a thought...

Graham

Think the americans tried this with road racing and it sort of worked. I think you would need to increase the figure to nearer £3k min as otherwise there would be very very few entries. Would you risk it? Then again be a better place to pick up a new bike than flea bay ?

[feetupfun]

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[feetupfun]

Old trials fanatic, on 09 February 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

Think the americans tried this with road racing and it sort of worked. I think you would need to increase the figure to nearer £3k min as otherwise there would be very very few entries. Would you risk it? Then again be a better place to pick up a new bike than flea bay ?

It is called a "claiming " rule and it is not just any vehicle, it is the event-winning vehicle that has to be available for sale at the specified price, and it can only be bought by a competitor. If it was any vehicle in the event and any person buying there is no way you would get people to enter unless they had a bike they wanted to get rid of.

[windlestone]

Why not get competitors to hand their entry forms in,for enter on the day events, with their bike present. The event secretary takes a quick look, if the bike is too trick then they enter in the Specials class.
Events secretary's decision is final.

The other difficuly is the sections we are marking out these days are not always standard pre 65 or twinshock friendly.

[grahamjayzee]

I think it only works in a competetive class, as otherwise there's not much to be gained from making the purchase. And as I see it, that's where the main problems exist as people spend huge amounts of money for competetive advantage.

I wonder how many of these transactions are actually made in the Scandinavian class, or whether it's just the presence of the rule that limits the spend?

What's clear is that there is no easy fix, is there?

One other thing I do notice from these discussions is that most of those who point at the heavily modified bikes are arguing for the SPIRIT of pre-65, and I think this is a very good point. Spirit of trials in general is emotive (I often see discussion when walking sections about taking wide loops because the markers don't specifically prohibit it; our observers don't usually quote the rule book about straight lines between markers, but simply point out that 'it's not trials, is it?'!), and it seems that many that enjoy the old bikes do so because of what they evoke.

Perhaps we need a gentleman's vote to decide such things!

Graham

[greeves]

One thing I allways hear in classic trials organisers is:

"We must mark tough sections to make the best pilots loose some dabs"

and in my opinion it is not all about the best pilots, as of course they make a difference, but about the highly prepared and modified bikes that at last really need harder sections to put their pilots in difficulties.

To be honest I can not see any difference in the sections that Sprite can do compared with a Bultaco Sherpa 199B, with a Honda TLR 250 or a Yamaha Majesty. But I see a big difference in the sections that FB needs in a trial compared with that Sprite.

Then what is classic trials all about? Specially what are pre categories all about? The kind of bikes and sections there were done in those times or the kind of bikes and sections 21st century evolution are leading to?

[old trials fanatic]

Greeves, on 10 February 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

One thing I allways hear in classic trials organisers is:

"We must mark tough sections to make the best pilots loose some dabs"

and in my opinion it is not all about the best pilots, as of course they make a difference, but about the highly prepared and modified bikes that at last really need harder sections to put their pilots in difficulties.

To be honest I can not see any difference in the sections that Sprite can do compared with a Bultaco Sherpa 199B, with a Honda TLR 250 or a Yamaha Majesty. But I see a big difference in the sections that FB needs in a trial compared with that Sprite.

Then what is classic trials all about? Specially what are pre categories all about? The kind of bikes and sections there were done in those times or the kind of bikes and sections 21st century evolution are leading to?

Good points well made Javier. The highly modernised bikes masquerading as Pre65 bikes are really modernised Twinshocks,Trickshox, and should be treated and grouped as such. Also in my book i think the laying out of sections has a lot to answer for and agree wholehartedly with your comments re "We must mark tough sections to make the best pilots loose some dabs" as they are only an entry the same as the lowly wobbler struggling on the "easy" route so the trial mus'nt be layed out with just a few in mind but the mojourity. If a bike is that modified that it has become a Trickshox bike then it MUST be consigned to the Expert route only. The other routes can then be laid out with more standard machinery and BIG bikes or less able rider taken into account.

When i first started trialing back in the days when the world was in black and white we rode just one route but the severity of a trial reflected it's status. Club trials were easy. Closed to Centre were a bit harder. Open to Centre harder still and Nationals were the pinnacle of the Sport. Nowadays when you ride an event it's hard to know from the severity of the sections what "level" of event it is? This cant be right can it? The same statements were made in the day "we must take marks off Mick Andrews, Dave Thorpe, Chris Millner" etc etc but another comment was also heard "well if it's too easy for them they can always go and ride an Open to Centre or National elsewhere". Worth a thought no one rider in a trial is nore important than any other and that applies to section severity as well as machine elgability. If we are to believe the statement "it's just about getting out on your bike" then anybody riding a "Modern Twinshock" should'nt have a problem with riding in the Trickshox class on the Expert route should they ? It's like playing cricket against a team that has bigger bats

This is most definately a good thread and is thought provoking which is timely because we have arrived at a crossroads and must decide the path that Classic Trials has to take. The bikes like the Sprite in question should not be considered pre65 because that is just taking the pi55 it's a Modern Twinshock at least and more accurately a Trickshox bike. I hope people, especially the ones who have contacted me, now see why we have introduced that class at our Club?