john collins

Yes It is till the end of the calender year in which he reaches 17. Obviously with something like this we are looking at the extreme ends of situation - but it can of course happen. If -the older ones amongst us actually think back to early school days - there always seemed to be someone in your class who had just scraped under some sort of age criteria and was always that much bigger etc - and always picked for the school Rugby team - and at other end of scenario - there would be somene who because of the age criteria just had to move up a class when all his friends etc stayed in a differnt one?

The replies being given are spot on ( must be more people reading this book than ever before!!) I confirm what has already been said Under 16 - A rider is Youth - and must ride the appropriate capacity machine - so 15 yr old will be on 125 etc Over 16 - A rider can choose to ride as a Youth ( until 17th birthday) OR an Adult - till he's my age ( then he should know better!) - no really until any age So between 16 and 17 he can actually choose - and can fluctuate back and forth if he wishes. BUT - When he rides as a Youth - he must ride correct capacity for Youth - 125 in example given When he rides as an Adult - he can ride adult capacity machines ie anything Parental Agreement: I did look into this within a few days after an email from Bikespace - but rather foolishly sent my reply via a return to site email which I always cock up and have no way of knowing if they ever get there. I should have just posted on site - so I will now The answer to the Parental Agreement and who must accompany a Youth to an event etc is all given ACU Licence/Registration form. ( page 6) I will not copy it all out for you - but to summarise- In each case the Parent/Legal Guardian will have signed tghe form to consent to the Minor taking part in motorcycle sport. Then it states Under 14 - Parent/legal Guardian must always be present when they compete Aged 14 or 15 - A responsible adult ( who need not be parent/guardian) must be present when the youth competes. Aged 16 or Over - There is no requirement for the minor to be accompanied

Answer was actually on Licence/Trials registration form all along! I have asked that it be included in Handbook for next year. Reads: ( better if you read actual form) Parental Agreement in respect of Minors under the age of 18. Under 14 - I consent to minor competing in motorcycle sport Parent ( or Legal Guardian) must be present when the minor competes. Aged 14 to 15 I consent to minor competing in motorcycle sport I understand that whenever the minor competes a responsible adult ( who need not be his/her Parent or Guardian) must be present. In respect of events which I am unable to attend, I agree that the responsible adult who attends with the minor has my authority to sign competitor documentation on behalf of the minor. Aged 16 and Over I consent to the minor competing in Motorycle sport I understand there is no requirement for the minor to be accompanied to events by an adult. I authorise the minor to sign documentation on his/her own behalf ALL THIS IS FOLLOWED BY A PARA WHICH IS A DECLARATION THE PARENT HAS TO SIGN - AND WE ALL TEND TO CALL THIS THE ANNUAL PARENTAL AGREEMENT Note - For R/Race, Drag, Sprint & Hillclimb - the Parent MUST be present for minors( U 18) at all events. So - To sum up - U14 - Parent must be there 14 -15 - Provided the Annual Declaration has been signed - a responsible adult can be nominated. Over 16 - Provided a Parental Declaration is aready in place - rider does not have to be accompanied.

I was determined not to get involved in this - but it is quite interesting - so I have succumbed. As Dan Williams and a few others have said - and BDMC certainly knows - bad situation with no real winners - but that's life. Only solution in my opinion is to scrub section. Obviously not good from other riders who have done nowt wrong - but C/Course I do not think has much choice. The C/Course has ultimate responsibility - and in this case the Observer has ( for whatever reason) been unable to complete the job the C/Course assumed he would do. Of course other riders have lost a section - not fair to someone who had a brilliant ride - and cleaned it both times - but - as the rider concerned was not marked - and this was confirmed by Observer - and also confirmed that he did not miss it etc through his own fault - what he actually scored may be open to debate/argument. The fact that he was not punched - after riding it - is not open to, debate - and so the section - for him is null and void. If we take an easier example - ( not so controversial) If half way through first lap an Observer feels faint - or is taken ill - or is chased off by a bull - or captured by aliens - those arriving after this - finding no-one there - will after a while just miss it and go to next one? Not fair to penalise them - so section must be scrubbed. Not fair to those who rode before - and specially those who cleaned it (one might have been having ride of his life!) - But the fact is the section cannot be

Yes - You are quite right - must start things moving asap Been a bit hectic with World Enduro and then British Experts etc - but will take some action withion a few days

I accept that there will always be reasons why people cannot attend such a seminar - and we will just have to live with that - but I am afraid many of the reasons are not that valid: Date - OK - it may clash with the French World round - and that would effect a few - but I emphasise a few. We have to be realistic and assess actually how many this applied to - my bet is very few indeed. I would ask those who found the date a big disadvantage to look at a calendar and suggest an actual better date - bearing in mind as Mick has stated that we accepted past criticism that if it is held later in year nothing is more annoying than being told - " cannot alter things now - too late for next year/handbook etc" - so we choose a time when things can actually be done. Venue: Yes Rugby is the HQ - but it is also at the HQ where our secretaries are based - it is important for them to be at the Forum we believe - as they deal with you all on the day to day basis etc ,. There is a reason that ACU HQ is in Rugby - and that is basically a geographical one - and it is a fairly central location. It should in theory mean that it is accessible to North, S, E and West. The idea of Forum in Scotland or somewhere may be all right for those who are actually riding up there - not a lot of use for riders who are not there - or certainly organisers from other parts of UK. I also ponder how long it would take for severe criticism of C/tee members from say Wales , Devon and South travelling that distance - and without them listening - even to constructive criticism - makes the whole thing a waste of time. Further to this - people have already mentioned Youth Observing rules - surely this debate should never be limited to those who happen to be in a certain place for a certain event - and do not ride or organise Youth events? Fortunately our sport is spread across the whole of the UK - and therefore it seems logical to hold it at the HQ - any other location will surely attract more problems for more people? Agenda: Sorry - cannot accept that if the agenda was published earlier more would go - what do we think was going to be discussed ? Football? The invitations to all Forums - except BC have always invited anyone to submit items for discussion - and some did ( thanks to those who made effort). The points I listed are the usual topics that come up for discussion in any agenda - in any club discussion and in any pub discussion - they are the items that concern us all ( as well as others) and will - and always have been on the table -year after year. Notice of Forum: Again - I think there was plenty of notice. It certainly featured in TC . It appeared in TMX - more than once. It appeared on ACU Web site for weeks. It even appeared on the Enduro news Web site. It was also advertised in the ACU mag - which every rider and Club secretary gets. Notice was also sent out to every Centre - and from them presumably the Clubs would also have received notice - I know ours certainly did. Again sorry - but while in the past there may not have been enough communication - I think the above was a fair amount. At end of the day - for second year running it has been cancelled - there were 8 confirmed attendee's - and these were basically from 3 - 4 organisations. It is not the end of the World - at least we gave the opportunity - and I confirm what Mick has already said - each of the items mentioned will certainly get further thought - but obviously that will now be limited to C/tee members - which is not ideal. I also echo Mick's point that at any time - feel free to approach a C/tee member at an event and bend his ear - we have no problem with that - but I admit that it is a little frustrating when we try to move things forward and take a wider viewpoint on board ( something that certainly has not always happened in past ) there is a lack of support. Finally finally - I really just hope that in general - but obviously with the normal tweaking and alterations - it is like Bikespace states - most people are fairly happy - and apart from the odd moan just wish to get on with riding thier bikes.

Alison - our T & E Sec will be in touch with all those who stated they would attend and will also of course post notice on ACU Web site and TC. But to save time and more effort and to give those who were making the effort to attend a chance to do other things I confirm that a decision was taken about 10 mines ago that the Trials Forum was cancelled due to lack of support - again. We are particularly disappointed for the few who were supportive of it - and we intend to open up some written dialogue back and forth with them so that the issues they were keen to discuss will not be passed over. We will make every effort to work with them on the issues they wish to raise. Someone asked what was on the agenda - basic answer : anything to do with trials - although as someone else stated the BC has its own forum later. Certainly those who were going to attend had asked for the following to be placed on agenda and it was: Risk Assessments, Traditional Trials Championship, Novogar, Youth Championships Trials section marking , and a few more topics. Already on agenda by T & E was : Trials Observing rules for 2009 - Youth & Adult - Especially FIM Observing rules Insurance - inc RTA cover Traditional and Sammy Miller Championships

In line with all the previous posts I would like to add my thnaks to Javier and Carlos for the tremendous welcome they gave all the British riders at Robregordo. It was also a pleasure to forget about ACU matters and just get back on a bike and enjoy a super trial - and it was an equal pleasure to be at event with such a great a bunch of British riders and their partners - it has restored my enthusiasm quite a lot. For those twin shock riders who thought about entering but never did ( I was nearly one of them) - start saving and planning now ready for next year - it really is worth it - and is something you will look back on and say " I was there"

So

Chewy - I have replied at great length to this before - it must be on the site somewhere. I am afraid you are over simplifying the problem - and need to read the past words in detail. Trying to sort it pretty dam quick is not an option I am afraid - it has taken about 3 years and lots of work to date - and no real solution has been found. In my last post I think I pointed out some obvious problems - especially the fact that looking at the numbers involved taking out the One event RTA insurance - it is one hell of a job trying to convince an Insurance company that there is any market for such a policy. We might believe there is - but as I have said before - if a road based trials has 100 entries - and 4 One event insurances are taken out on the day - the logical conclusion for an insurance man is that 96 people already have cover? Step 1 - When trying to persuade an Insurance company to look at the issue - How many riders are likely to take it up? No good saying loads - or all my mates - we need specifics - and it is not easy to asses as we think Step 2 - the Insurance Company always always wish to know when their Insurance would kick in - or kick out - we used to say - as soon as the rider left the road or highway - simple - no longer the case I am afraid. The insurance companies are able to assess the situation about bikes on the road - but when they start looking at Public places, Rights of Way, Boats, Rupps and so on - they start to get very cold feet indeed. If as customers - Insurance companies decline to offer cover while in any competitive event - that is their prerogative - there is not a lot for the ACU to sort out - sure we can explain what trials are all about - been done on numerous occasions - sure we can show them a trials bike - been done (not sure if that was such a good move) Sure we can point out that statistics show that there has been very little claim culture etc - been done - and so on. We must keep trying - and hopefully someone one day will take up the challenge - but it ain't happened yet for numerous reasons - but I assure you it is not for the want of trying - and I do not wish to claim brownie points for this as it has been others who have spent lots of time/ efforts and meetings - but so far to no avail. As I said in my last post on the subject - there are dozens of Insurance Brokers who advertise all sorts of Insurance - but they are just that - Brokers. They often claim they will offer an annual policy - and off we go down the road again trying to provide statistics and estimates etc - but then it is the same old story - these brokers do not " write" insurance - they are only brokers - and there are not as many actual, Insurance companies who write motorcycle insurance as you think- and so when the broker finally decided it has been a wasted voyage - we start all over again - and so it goes on.

The stator plate and coils will fit straight onto your 250 and are identical. The flywheel on the 350 however is much heavier - but will fit - give you more low down torque - but you will loose a little response - if you can - use the 250 flywheel it will be better - but you can get away with 350 one if you have to.

Hi Chewy I would be interested to know who you have contacted at ACU ( and received no response - perhaps you can email me details?) The RTA Insurance can be offered by the Organiser of an event - and most now do so. The cost is

I did make some enquiries about this - and I am informed that the Trials feature is set for some time in the future - possibly with other motorcycle events shown at same time.

Hi Spud You do have a few options. I assume you are an ACU Club/Centre. As others have said - Time & Observation trials were quite popular some years back - I know I rode quite a few in the Bristol area and I also remember competruing in the Tanner Trudge which was a very famous one . I am fairly sure they still some T & O in this part of world. The Scott of course still the real big one. It does seem however that you wish something different from normal time and observation - and if this is the case - we have a possible solution in the form of a " Special Event " Permit - which is basically for any event that does not fall neatly into a normal Trial or Enduro category. All you need to do in first instance is draw up some basic regulations ( do not be to fussy at this point) - just explaining what you have in mind - and how it will all work. If it makes some sort of sense - and there are no worries re safety issues etc - I am sure we can sort it all out with you - and arrabhe suitable insurance I cannot stress enough however how helpful it will be for you to consult with local Clubs/Centre as they will be able to assist in many ways

Not guilty on this one I am afraid - the T & E has not been involved - and I know nothing really about it. I will however certainly try to find out some details or at least pass views to the Dept involved

I hope through my rather long reply that I have explained out thinking and theory on the matter of section inspection. On many matters we are more than a little reticent to put everything in print and one can always try to circumnavigate a rule

Yes Baldilock the Devitt scheme was an excellent one and a big loss. We have been back to them to try to get it re-instated but again unfortunately no luck. It does seem to me that in nearly all cases it is not the claim history or past problems that seem to be influencing maters - but a fear of " potential" problems that may arise. Does not seem fair - but they seem to be trying to put everything neatly into the same box - and anything different - easier to just decline.

The rider signs an Entry form which say's quite clearly that where RTA requirements need to be met - it is their responsibility to ensure they have all this in place - including Ins/Licence/MOT if applicable and of course legal machine. Checking insurance cover notes / certificates etc is not something that I think should be forced on the already hard working Organiser - and in actual fact would be a quite difficult task The onus needs to be clearly on the rider - and the Club have after all requested him to confirm by signature that all this is in place

It's a good question Telecat - and one would wonder why it cannot be done - but unfortunately as Mick Wren has pointed out - it just cannot be found at anywhere like a reasonable price - and even then there seems to be last minute hitches and small print involved. The ACU of course are not an Insurance Company - and are not in fact Brokers. We arrange our insurance through a broker - and they have tried for a long time to find a suitable policy for our members - but without any realistic success. As a matter of interest - not all that many Insurance companies can actualy " write" cover for motorcycle insurance. There are a alimited number of comopanies whom can/will do it - this means that while you see dozens of adverts offering motorcycle insurance - in say the back of Auto Trader - most of these are just brokers - and then have to arrange policies with actual underwriters etrc. This is where the problem lies - as these companies are not that interested ( and some 100% decline) when they realise the event is " part" of a competition. And yes of course they have had it all explined to them etc about how we only use the road bit to join up say one group with another or from one farm to another - but they are not inclined to offer cover. I am certainly not an insurance expert - but have been told that one problem which seems to scare them - is that while they are insuring you on the road bit say between the start and the first group - once you leave the highway - you are often still in a Public place ( in Trials we usually are all the time) - and I am told they fear that if there was a claim they could be" drawn in" as one of the Insurers involved - and of course the last insurer involved until you left the road ( and here they probably worry about the definition of when you actually left the road - or are you still on it ? ) All this is still ongoing - but I must say I fear a good solution is not apparent at moment. I would not wish to go into too much further detail on a Web site - but perhaps I can offer a hyperthetical example which is not too far from reality. ACU to Insurance Co : We have lots of Trials on road - our Insurance cover covers riders once they are off the highway - we just need some RTA cover for when they are on the road. Ins: But surely these machines must be insured to be able to be taxed and registered etc? Why do the riders not take out a policy same as everyone else ACU to Ins - They can/do - but most companies insert a stupid clause saying that insurance is not valid when competing in a trial etc - and of course they are not competing while on highway - just using it to join up places. Ins - Is this a big problem ? - have you got lots of riders who would buy this policy off me? ACU : Yes loads - beacuse practically every rider has this problem - we think 99% would purchases a policy off you Ins - We may be interested - but tell me - I am sure we arranged some cover for a " one off - one day cover" for riders for you - to solve this problem - at least in the short term - that must be an earner? ACU - Well we appreciate it of course - but it is exopensive if you have to do it each time - and a bit of a drag - our members would prefer an annual. Ins - Ok - lets just look at some figures - In the last National Trial held on road of say 100 riders - how many took out the One Day cover? JC - Er - 4 Ins : **!!!!!!***** 4 - You told me road cover while in an event is virtually unavailable from their own Insurance companies - and now you are ****!!!!!***** telling me there were only 4 people in the event who actually needed it. What did the others do? Who did they use? JC - hang about - I've just got to go and mend a puncture in my Bultaco - I'll get back to you as soon as I can

We have discussed all this before and I see no real point in going over it all again - an older post will give chapter and verse. Too often however a rider who gets a handbook through the letter box and does not think he needs it - seems only concerned with what he needs ( or thinks he needs) The fact is that the Organisers and the whole set up in general - ( which is all of us) - on advice given - and frankly common sense - are deemed to be better protected if a rider has a handbook containing the regulations/rules which he has signed up for - as well as written details of insurance cover ( which he has paid for) - as well as many other things that he - the rider is responsible for ( yes its not just the organiser who has responsibility - but also the rider when things go wrong) - which again he has signed up to ( NSC etc). The rider has signed to much of this - including the Environmental Code - which will be quite handy in future I assure you to be able to wave a handbook at those who will be using the environmental issues in the near future to try to stop us. If the inconvenienec for all this is that a postman has to drop it through your letter box - and you actually have to bend down to pick it up - I apologise with all my heart. If you have asked for a CD - and are getting Handbooks - this is a cock up - and there is no excuse - I will try to find out what has happened - but as I have said before - the books/CD are not sent out from ACU - it is part of the contract as far as I am aware with printer/mailing house/supplier - BUT - it must be a waste of money somewhere and I will try to investigate. Re - Red and Blue markers - Of course this is a typo - and in a Handbook this size these will occur and while they should have been picked up in draft reading - they have not - mistake obviously but these things do happen. Not sure about the logic that if there is a mistake - and there will be quite a few , that this in some way a justification for not having a handbook - but it is a mistake and should have been picked up.

OK

OK - You have all got me hooked - where are the Regs & Entry forms etc ?

I may have one - although chrome would perhaps need to be sorted. As our Butaco spares come by the ton rather than the box you would have to give me time to look. Ring - John Collins - JC MotorCycles 01639 882241

I understand where you are coming from Scorpa - and please believe me it is not always to give clear answers on a forum. Basically however few years ago - each event - in its event paperwork, would receive a Technical report form - which would be filled in by someone at the end of the event - (it was still the same criteria for people as know). What it would say was something like all the machines have been examined. Then it was sent off - and I was never sure what happened to it then, and now one actually gave me a satisfactory answer. I suppose we could go down the route of having a common form - with say tick boxes - e.g. Ball End levers Yes / No Operating Brakes Yes / No Trials Tyres Yes/No Chain guard to Manufacturers Spec Yes/No So - yes the appointed machine examiner would have this form - and could tick the boxes - but what have we actually achieved? I can only presume - that if the answer was no to one of the questions - then the rider either had to fix it immediately or go home? Where I struggle - is to really see what the difference is now - if the machine examiner - found that there were no ball end levers fitted - is not then the sensible outcome that the rider has to fix it or go home? The sheet/form has made little if any difference to the actual result - other than giving someone a specific job to do - and of course the responsibility for doing it. Yes - the formal recording of serious technical failures can be recorded - but this is the case now - where there is a form available to record these problems. All this paperwork may look impressive - but at the end of the day - what have we actually solved? Do we have a problem in that riders are competing on machines which are unsafe? Is there any evidence of this? Have our insurers expressed concern and asked us to do it? As I am fairly sure the answer to these questions is no - then I am not really sure we should be mounting a paperwork exercise for the sake of it. I do agree a

I will try to give some guidance