g4321

As you all probably know Honda have the samebasic clutch design/size in most of the sub 200cc single cylinder 4 stroke motors. The TLR250 and TRX250 quad along withthe CR80 schoolboy scrambles bike must be really pushing the plates to the limit. No wonder there is sometimes some slip noticed if you torture the clutch a little. As for the CR80 these are thrashed within an inch of their lives each time the engine is run with little or no finess in the use of the clutch. Since these bikes tend to be largely unburstable and suffer little or no maintenance in many cases it may be worth finding out a little more on whether std honda CR80 plates are different spec to the other bikes (they are the same size in the EBC book). CR80 plates may give a little more leeway to you guys who ride the clutch all the time ? Just a thought? Had a look at part nos for various clutch plates ( I have no access to CG125 fiche & Americans have not heard of it!) TLR250 & 200 22201 - KB4 - 670 - superceeded by part 22201 - GF6 - 000 - listed at $9.52 each on US sites XR200 22201 - GF6 - 000 (superceeds part no 22201 - 166 - 000) XL125 22201 - 166 - 000 CR85 22201-MR8-000 $7.61 The site I was looking at did not have a fiche for CR80 but this looks to be same clutch. Note the difference in price! Interestingly Dave Silver spares still lists a clutch kit for TLR250F

Was it a 200 or 250? Who had the bike?

Both these comments confirm what I thought about the clutch slip I was temporarily suffering on Monday. The bike has a longer operating arm - gives a lovely light feel to the clutch though and i had just tightened up the play in the cable a little before lending it to a guy who is used to riding the clutch of his bike all the time - all adds up to a recipe for clutch slip? When the clutch had cooled down - normal riding and i reset the play to what it was before there was no sign of slip at all.

When I bought my first TLR250 several years ago I purchased clutch plates from Colin Appleyards who advised me to use genuine CG125 friction plates rather than the ones listed for the TLR. Aftermarket plates for the TLR and CG are the same in the EBC catalogue. As for the Centrifugal filter I only clean this once or twice a year - say every 6 - 10 oil changes. As yet i have not found anything significant in it - only the first time I cleaned it when i first bought the bike!. If I found anything out of the ordinary in the mesh filter I would investigate the centrifugal filter . With my 'new' bike I will give it a couple of oil changes before checking the filter then depending on the results move towards my normal schedule. No doubt someone else willgive you a different opinion! The TLR200 manual lists oil change every 2000miles / 1year and mesh filter cleaning the same interval. the centrifugal filter it lists every 7200miles. By the way your 250 looks everybit as good in the flesh as it does in the photos - I spoke to you at the Manx this year at the start of the trial.

Aplleyards advise to use CG125 plates. Are the CR80 plates same part number as CG125 plates? I fitted EBC plates to one of my bikes - needed them in a hurry and for the 1st time got clutch slip - a friend who slips the clutch constantly on his bike had tried mine for 5 - 10 minutes - possibly he had tightened up cable but I think it was the abuse the clutch got from him which caused it to slip once I got bike back. After 10 minutes ;normal' running the clutch was back to normal - ie no slip. Oil the TLR200 manual advises a SAW 10W-40 oil - SE or SF API. The 250 addendum does not quote an oil grade. Farley motorcycles advise fully synthetic castrol GP4 oil. I have been using good quality semi-synthetic or fully synthetic car oil for years in one of my TLR's with no problems - its cheaper than bike oil and alows regular oil changes - ie every hard or long trial. I was going to continue with this but due to the clutch slip noticed on the other bike (just in case its oil related which I doubt) i am probably going back to bike oil for a few changes!

Out of respect for the riders competing I personally would never use flash taking trials photos - without asking the riders first (if you are taking pictures of a friend then ask/warn him) Fair enough you can fill in shadows etc but not all photographers take care where they are standing/pointing camera. The worst I have seen is where a press photographer has his camera pointed directly at into a riders face as they climb out towards the end of a section - it was clear to everyone but the photographer that he was distracting many of the competitors. There was no need for this - I was taking pictures as were another couple amateur photographers oat the same obstacle - only the press guy did not think of the riders.

Think of it this way - would a flash gun going off in your face put you off when concentrating in the middle of a difficult section? YES I suspect you will answer.! I have seen a good rider i know very well fiving a section at the Scottish because of a flashgun going off directly in his eyes. I would have put money on him cleaning the section. lets just say he was not very happy - initially blaming me since i was takinga picture at the time (not by flash I hasten to add!) Although it is a different sport there are always warnings given at the TT Races in the Isle of Man NOT to use flash guns since they can put off riders. Marshalls at all points round the course are directed to 'tell off' miscreants. This is something I fell strongly about - although you will often see 'professional' photographers at trials using flash - in my opinion this is just bad positioning on there part. They doin't need to take photos in a section where the light is too bad to require flash.

Sounds like it is the same bike then!

I use thin hide working type gloves - basically because I am used to leather gloves on the road and it does not feel right riding anything without gloves on. The advantages of leather outweigh the disadvantages - cheap to buy, no problem with thorns, whins or gorse, dont abrade on rock when you fall off, some heat protection when you touch a hot exhaust pipe - when falling off! They also last a lot longer than anything else. I have never suffered from blisters when wearing leather gloves in trials , several enduros or several years scrambling (motocross). I have tried thin fabric type MX gloves in the past - when I forgot my own gloves and to be honest I was not impressed in that I thought they gave no protection at all - you seemed to be paying for bright colours and a fashionable name. The disadvantages are - they get wet and depending on type can stain your hands!

Values Perhaps some people do think these are the best bike out there in their class and are willing to pay for the privaledge of owning one - hence the high price they are willing to pay. Not everyone has the same opinion - it would be a sad world if they did. External oil feed I saw a TLR with an external oil feed recently (perhaps MGP 2004?) I spoke to the owner enquiring about the mod - he said this was done before he bought bike. Unless this is the same bike in the thread then relying on identifying an external oil feed on a video may not be 100% accurate. Need to find out registration of bike ridden in Scottish. Compression As I made clear I was talking about relative changes. If you have an accurate figure to start wioth it is easy to accurately work out how much to skim from a head or how much spacer to add to get to a desired ratio. You need an accurate figure to start with. Would an RTL kickstart work with a TLR outer case? Perhaps this is the reason for a TLR kickstart being used. If the shafts are different diameters then it puts the RTL motor theory into question.

Adding 0.5mm to the base gasket would reduce the compression ration to between 8.0 :1 and 8.1:1 from a standard 8.5:1. This to me would constitute a significant reduction in compression. You are corrct in saying a thicker gasket does retard the cam timing slightly, but to be honest the cam timing on a TLR is never going to be after removing the crankshaft sprocket because of the lack of a fixed reference point when ref-fitting the sprocket. 'Lining up the centre of a sprocket tooth with the centre of the Woodruff key' is pretty vague for Honda! - Perhaps this helps why some TLRs are 'sharp' and others are 'smooth'. I would not be happy with Devcon/Araldite or similar in a cylinder head - even the iinlet port, hence my comment about head-work being a pretty serious undertaking. From HondaRS Theoretically (in the books I have read anyway!) all fourstroke singles give better low-down torque with a large volume exhaust - there is a formula relating swept volume to exhaust volume - I don't know what it is. I was surprised to be able to tell the difference between a WES system & std Honda front box.From t-shock 250 Lifting the front wheel of a TLR250 onto a trailer at the end of a trial proves it is NOT light . Spot on description!From reading all the posts it seems we all agree on similar things - some bikes can have snatchy power delivery low down some bikes prone to stall - some guys use a higher idle speed to help cure this RTL250 or CG125 clutch plates are better than std TLR (Appleyards advise CG125! - they were cheaper several years ago when i got some). Std Exhaust best - then DEP & WES There are differences in opinion on how competetive the bike is and how powerfull it is compared to other twinshocks - it would be a sad world if we were all the same! this sums it up Are TLR250's 2 a penny - judging by the prices they are fetching then I think the answer must be no. Its a case of supply & demand. As for the RTL being too expensive to ride & not having a class for it - its significantly less expensive than a new bike (particularly 4st Honda (Montesa) and can ride in normal trials. There is no law saying you have to have a 'modern' bike to compete. My TLR is ridden in the twinshock class where there is a twinshock class but in normal club trials I ride the same route as everyone else - I am never near to top of the field but may scores on a good day are similar to the lower end on the normal riders - LACK OF SKILL NOT LACK OF BIKE.

I was aware of the 'reductioin in compression ratio' improvement. This is relatively easy if/when you have the bike stripped down - by using a thicker base gasket - since the base gasket is no longer available from Honda you have to make your own anyway. On my new bike I used the thickest gasket paper I had. The gas flow would require fairly radical head-work - possibly reducing port diameter to increase flow speed - am I correct? Rejetting - is this only for low speed running - would low speed mixture adjustment via air screw be sufficient? Unless you have a lot of skill in reading carburation (or access to a rolling road...???) going beyond this I suspect would be difficult to get right . I have tried a bike with WES exhaust alongside mine which has std front box but with one-off rear box . Both the owner of the other bike and myself felt my bike pulled better at low revs - the only difference was the exhaust. I suspect the improvend low speed running with the original front silencer is due to the decrease in volume ofthe WES exhaust. - any thoughts? Agree - especially the 'difficult to keep control in some situations' - this I put down to my lack of skill & lack of set-up skills! On comparisson to 200 I felt 200 was easier to controll due to gentler/softer power delivery. The other mods I have heard of are: 1 optimising the cam timing - by slotting the mounting holes on cam sprocket - this would take a lot of trial and error to get correct. 2 The clutch arm can easily be lengthened to give a lighter pull. 3 Running without airbox & using foam or K& N style filter - jetting accordingly. I would have thought this would make low speed running worse but improve 'top end power' - please correct me if i am wrong Owning a Gollner TLR250 I have heard the rumour of different 2nd and 3rd ratios in the gearbox - I could not identify anything unusual when i stripped the box but found out from 'Farley's' that they thought this was only carried out on the 200's.

Not a lot on TV tonight so Ebay it is & its a bit late to go back to garage TL/XL/CB125 165cc barrel for sale

Hot Caustic Soda is the stuff you require. Pretty 'orrible & messy stuff to use. Need to watch it on alloy (can't remember if it is safe to use on alloy since I grew out of twostrokes several years ago!) Remember it as Caustic - like your wit! and Soda - what you should never add to a good Malt! The other way is to burn it out using either a propane or Acetylene blowtorch - this is also very messy (& smelly!) Just been checking an old '50's lightweight motorcycle & cyclemotor book - when 2 strokes were in their prime. Caustic Soda is NOT to be used on alloy. Some brief comments from the book - lets know ifyou want to borrow it! Make up the mixture at 2lb per Gallon of water (don't expect metric units in a 50's book!) Only ferrous parts can be cleaned this way Dont let the solution splash on your hands, it is an irritant - it will cause a rash 'similar to stinging nettles'. If the solution is kept hot after 1/2 minute or so the parts will be cleaned. Merry Christmas & Happy Hogmany to alll

Whats the internal differences - apart from gearing? Please enlighten me on what mods are required? I have seen several people say mods are required but as yet have not seen any information on them.

Had a look at my two bikes this morning - both have similar engine numbers begining ME07E-5****** I would advise against quoting full engine/frame/reg numbers on the web. Could you post a couple pictures of your engine on the site - ie with the tank removed then someone like 'Big John' who dreams about RTL's and can quote some of the RTL part numbers off the top of his head may give a yeah or nay whether or not the bike has an RTL motor. I have seen other TLR's with external oil feeds - at the Manx classic trial last year if I remember correctly. As for stalling/spitting back my bike used to occasionally suffer from this but it was more due to my riding . I actually geared the bike down slightly running a 9/44 rather than 9/39 ratio, this certainly seems to have improved the situation, the only other change I made was to increase the tickover speed . My new bike has a different exhaust system and seems smoother at low revs. After 2 hours running its hard to say whether or not there is any problem with stalling/spitting back but I will still use this as an excuse at my 1st trial on it! As for being competetive - the 2003 Scottish twinshock champion rode a std TLR250, complete with lights and std shocks!

Il check my engine numbers tomorrow to see if this is similar to my 2

Best Scots Webcam by far! Real Scots Webcam

I would agree with 'Boofont' here in suggesting a TY250 monoshock Yamaha. As a beginer you will want a bike which is durable/robust enough to survive falling over several times along with its rider. The other advantage of this route is Yamaha spares are easy to find and relatively cheap. Drum brakes & cable clutches are not the best but levers are cheap to buy! personally I prefer 4 stroke Hondas but prices of Honda trials bikes have gone through the roof and they are not as easy to ride. The Jap bikes seem to suffer a lot more abuse without complaint than the myriads of Spanish & Italian bikes out there. You are more likely to find a good 10 - 15 year old Yam or Honda tahn anything else. Whatever you buy go out with the intention of enjoying yourself - some days you wont but most you will.

What are you registering John? Was the bike registered as new? Have you taken the plunge and bought a new 4 stroke?

"straight to the SACU" that is not quite correct, the insurance premiums are then paid across to the insurers, the SACU are acting as collecting agents, it's not all "profit". I appreciate you are corrrect here John - I used to know how much went towards insurance (and it has probably gone up!) but to the average rider who has had little to do with running the sport it is seen as 'going straight to the SACU (or ACU). Most peope make little or no differentiation between 'insurance costs' and SACU levy. Would the event levy need to be as high as

As John and Mr B both know I came from a MX/Enduro background and the vast majority of riders were unhappy when the cost of the licence went up (by

Thanks for the comprehensive reply - I now understand the difference between South and North of the Border. This must be the only area where there is any debate over the South of Border being the poor relation!

When i tried bike with rebuilt shock I felt rear was too soft - hence original question. I tried Beta on same sections and mate tried my bike - my conclusion was Honda was too soft & Beta felt OK. On watching mate on Honda the appearance of bike over steps/boulders to me was that too much travel was used - ie too soft. Sufficient time was spent on bike to bed in shock. Since then i have stiffened up pre-load to decrease sag (was around 90 - 95mm) now closer to 70mm with static sag of roughly 18mm Spent half an hour in mates garage tonight comparing sag etc on his Beta which I find handles Ok for me against my figures (we are both of similar weight & probably ability!) . My 'new' settings are virtually identical to Beta (luck not judgement) - I wont know till I try bike but i have kept a reference to original settings As for shock the Gollner shock is a bit of a one-off according to Falcon and is a compromise with quite a stiff spring rate required due to short shock length/ lack of space and lack of linkage. Ii doubt that the spring has been changed because of this but this always possibility. My problem is i am used to riding a twinshock TLR250 Honda which is not particularly well set up or ballanced from front to rear. I dont really have the experience to set up a 'new' bike from scratch without taking some figure as a starting point - comparing my monoshock bike to my twinshock is like chalk & cheese - the engines are the same basic engine but power delivery & handling are poles apart. on first impressions (this is not only my opinion).