Yes, indoor maybe but maybe outdoor as well? The WTC is already extreme just by its nature maybe the only evolution for the survival of trials in general is to split it off? I'm thinking of ways to make it appealing to the youngsters without also losing the tradition.
I see, needs some thought. My off the cuff is 1) rules need sorting and a concensus agreed 2) the whole financial aspect needs to be organised, as does the promotion and admin of the events.
OK IM WRONG YOUR 100% RIGHT SO WHAT EVER YOU SAY HAPPY now Nigel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GB ridders will be at WTC or not i really dont care !!!! make a living from it or not I really dont care !!! BTC will be great I really dont care !! WHY coz non of it effects me and my life !
If none of it affects your life why would you say such a horrible thing in the first place, im guessing you voted for brexit too.
To turn this around, can you list WTC events that aren't huge step, pause, huge step - repeat ? Those would be the ones I'd be interested in.
Most of the Italian rounds arent just steps, poland and portugal are good. France is hit and miss depending on venue, Isola 2000 i liked.
Andorra was one of my favourite events whist it does have steps it also has had streams which could easily be in yorkshire.
Spanish rounds can be fantastic but sometimes it majors on steps. Northern Ireland was one of my favourites, and I'll never forget Unadilla watching Cabestany blowing up the 4 banger sherco.
My all time best? Spa in Belgium for various reasons, closely followed by poland, and Darfo Borario terme.
For your reference ?since were talking BRITS well Brits just leave dont move down a class just leave ! and will 2021 only 2 weeks away will it be a real full championship ? OR due to covid
AS for backing If they dont have /or get sponsorship people must feel there NOT good enough to get it , is that due to too many riders getting bigged up by family and friends in turn them riders expect sponsorship ?
AS for Cabestany DID he not move to gasgas electric ? after a gap leaving/pushed from sherco, & Graterolla dropping down a class is doing better now in trial 2 than he ever would in GP NOW both are WTC Champions and what dose that bring £s and sponsorship !
Fuji as the number 2 rider in the team he can and dose beat a lot of other teams number 1 riders so hes doing his job ! HRC seem happy with him to pay him
All the names you point out have 1 thing in common they are well established and PROVEN with teams and sponsorship, and over the years been making friends/sponsors dropping down the ranks & moving class but still there !
A elite sportsman MAKEs HIS OR HER LIVING from that sport ,so there going in to that sport as ive said "entitled/expecting" to make there living from it BUT if trials is a AMATURE sport " thats a good career choice !" my point exactly they dont have a 9-5 job so there expecting to make a living from trials !!
Now Jack Price how long in full wtc ? so not well established /not proven & not made a massive impact at wtc level
youve just avoided admitting you are wrong again, by using loads of different aspects gb when we are taliking GP etc etc.
Your argument/viewpoint is an incoherent shambles and not worth the effort.
My main disagereement is your castigation of decent lads riding trials at wtc level, whatever class.
Ive come across hundreds of wtc riders, some arrogant some awkward some cheating riders, but never one from the UK or anywhere who thought the sport owes them a living and you just wont name the riders you say that applies to, I can only assume cos you know your statement was false and wont back track and admit your mistake?
Maybe a split, as suggested previously - Trials & Extreme Trials? Since the sport is already divided maybe making it official will help?
As i showed above, bu not going to wtc doesnt make you an expert in wtc. I doubt there is anything to be gained by splitting trials anymore, some would say Xtrial is extreme anyway?
So to recap for Nigel " I class" ALL i say again "ALL" "ALL" ALL" sponsored riders the/a problem ! AND the topic is about TRIAL GP Thats NOT trial GB !! elite riders living? well they soon leave when they drop down a few places and not get the same sponsorship ,so how many of these top/elite riders have a 9-5 day job away from bikes ? and on the subject why do people take up a profession if not to make a living from it
My reference above was for UK riders in TRial GP, not gb, and as 2021 is only 2 weeks away anyone who is sponsored will have that in place, but come back and prove me wrong when youre ready.
So lets take Cabestany, has he left trial GP when he dropped a few places?
Fuji?
Graterolla has dropped a class not a few places. Are these still riding?
Jack Price hasnt dropped a few places, but he's left, how does that fit your view?
Explain how an elite sportsman in any sport, sponsored or not could compete and keep a 9-5 job?
On 12/13/2020 at 7:31 PM, motorcycleemptyness said:
World Trials is so far away from what Trials is in the UK they'd be better off rebranding it as say ' Extreme Trials '.
It's also boring to watch , turn , big step , turn , big step etc etc .
The rules are not consistently enforced
There is little or no promotion whatsoever since Jake stopped his involvement (say what you like about J.Miller but he had the right idea with the free / live streaming)
There is no real money in it unless you make the top 5 .
Honda have a financial advantage over the others and can basically afford anything they need .
Too many Spanish style sections .
Sorry if these points have already been covered , i couldn't be bothered to read all the argumentative comments above ?
give us a list (excluding 2020) of the WTC events you've visited in the last few years?
so which is it Nigel ? you have confused me are they Making a living out of trials OR Not making a living out of trials ? so of course the top riders want harder sections its to keep them at the top of the pay packet
In the past those named above have earned money from trials. I would also say in recent years with the michaud no-stop rules the sections were eased and prolonged the careers of the top riders like never before.
In 2021 in the uk I dont think any riders are earning from the sport.
Simple enough to understand now?
I've answered your question, so for the zillionth time of asking who do you say are these riders and I quote " these elite/top riders feel- the sport owes them a living" ???
Without naming names one of the top UK riders told me that even for the very top riders (Bou, Raga etc) there is no money in the outdoor world championship. They get paid a nominal wage and costs but there is very little in terms of prize money on offer.
He did say that all of the money is (or was at the time) in indoor trials; with decent starting fees and good prize money.
I remember watching indoors 10-15 years ago where you would have 10 riders minimum starting that covered most of the top riders in the world, plus some local wildcards. Therefore spreading the prize money around a greater pool of riders. Nowadays its the same 5 riders at every X-trial, so unless you can crack into and stay in that top 5 there is very little money in the sport for any other riders.
It seems to me the decline in the outdoor world championship is linked to the reduction in participants and constant changing of the format of the X-trials / indoors.
To me watching indoor trials is akin to watching Ninja Warrior or Total Wipeout on TV. You need to see a good group of people struggle to really appreciate the people who can complete the course.
Pretty sure Bou Fuji Raga and Dougie have made a good living from trials, mainly outdoor. Cabes and fajardo have made a bit due to longevity i guess.
I cant recall the figures but did get the idea that indoors cant be the golden goose, if you do the maths for sheffield the win cant bemore than 4 figures surely?
Apart from Carlos Casas and many others in the ssdt, and Javier Cruz, Javier Gil, Carlos Bosch and at least another ten in the pre 65 and highland 2 day ....?
Adam Raga came to the uk to spend some time in mud, practised in the midlands at Ali Haighs farm I think.......
Well What I think is --- ALL Riders getting sponsorship and payed , but loose that ! they leave the sport,SO,obviously its only the money keeping them there , it MUST there living as they can not afford to stay without it
Im about done here, as you refuse to name those riders YOU pointed the finger at...........
As a poi all riders (in the uk) who are sponsored at some level are very unlikely to get "paid" in fact im struggling to think who would be in 2021 and isnt using that pay to fund the travel and simple expenses of competing in the WTC, at any level?
Clearly you are wrong about leaving due to lack of sponsorship as Jack Price had a year to run, and Im sure dibs couldve got some deal if he wanted to do it again.
Not an Italjet Dude but came across this little stash over here in the US..!
There is a guy on ebay USA - d_on_rr - that has quite a few rare NOS Italjet trials bits not listed as such.. OEM mudguards, decals, gas tank, headlight & misc items..just need to search thru his store..!
NO nigel YOU TELL US were the money is in trials ? Whats that got to do with this thread, where did i mention there was money in trials? as for your perspective of me what ever ! Its a perspective gained from you making an assertion then not answering a simple question several times question As for names how far back do you want to go ? Anyone from anytime will do i have been doing trials long enough whats that got to do with anything?to know there is NO money in it ! So sammy toni Mick andrews rathmell Dougie mart tarres (etc etc)and others didnt gain anything from competing? , if it costs "X" amount to sponsor a rider and that sponsor/business used the same "X" amount advertising on the internet which will have the bigger audience trials rider or the internet ? Adverstising needs to be a target audience what is the best place to advertise is best left to experts, youre mixing sponsorship with internet advertising which isnt always the same thing value for money. /,So tell us Nigel when the rewards are so low why are these riders allowed to/are keep push the sport to such a level How does a rider push the level with any kind of willingness, isnt it simply a given fact that performances techniques and the improvement of bikes, all 3 elements added together which has increased severity?that the costs out way the return AS cost and commitment well thats any sport if you want to be good at it !"Hard circus sections" how do you think non trials riders see it ? How many wtc's in the flesh have you seen in the last 20 years? when grass root riders can not even relate to the sections !"Riders priced themselves out of a job" well they can not afford to pay for it on there own but they need to be in it to win it to get the sponsor ! why do people think trials will become a mass spectator sport and that will fix the cash problem ? some sports are just not popular to non participants and trials is one of them sports can you write these sentances in a coherent form cos im struggling to see your point?
sorry if people feel this is harsh but whats the point of looking through rose tinted glasses at problems As ive said in the past trials at grass routes is doing well !!! Evidence or anecdote? the part of trials that is struggle is the part were money /sponsorship is involved !!!!!!!!!!!!! I never thought trials is /will or has been a professional sport See a few names above
And please YOU TELL US which riders think it owes them a living?
I would think that is the case. Out the loop for a week.
Factory sponsorship is designed to promote a brand and encourage people to buy that particular bike/brand. If Bou rode the six day and won it everyone would say it was him not the Montesa so hardly a good investment. More likely that the importers would stump up a few quid to see a top name or two.
hasnt really happened for a while though......struggling to think who and when?
Let me think well how about the ones that throw the towel in when they dont get sponsorship !!! these top /elite riders got what THEY wanted hard "circus" sections but still want harder ,+ needing minders and parts and that comes at a cost (to get there and be there ) well they now have priced them self out of a job They want to be there but expect a sponsor to pay for them to be there that sort of rider Nigel !
I asked which, dont be shy name names?
My perspective is you dont know anything about trials at the elite level, even less the efforts, commitment and costs involved for young riders and their families. There is a big long list I could give of french Italian spanish, and British lads who have tried and (I imagine) like Jack Price question the long term requirements versus possible returns when they get near the elite class. I cant think of any of the hundreds ive watched ever going into the sport thinking I could get paid for this, perhaps you know different?
When did any elite rider ask for a "hard Circus"?
How have these top riders priced themselves out of " a job"?
301 is best mont to date - i was impressed when changed from 260 to 300rr bur 301 is another 20 or 30 % better again. Just the same but much better - nothing obvious but just smoother and more useable Its hard to describe but when I changed early 2020 and let a few local mont 260 riders have ago they thought i should be banned for cheating ???
we had a french test run of paperwork checks yesterday, for only 1 day, motoway all blocked up with lorries, right where some of the good venues are in east kent are
they are building a medium sized lorry park for a few thousand lorries, the big french strike of 8+ years ago went to 6000+ lorries, so the fall back plan is to shut large strenches of our motoways (and an old airbase) and park 8-10,000 lorries
You mean theres no unicorns sunny uplands and a brexit bonus?
Grattarola said he's ready to return to TrialGP class, after his second Trial2 World Championship. I imagine he'll be staying on Beta and replacing Dibs. Before the announcement I thought Dibs would possibly swap spots with Grattarola and drop down to TR2 with Beta. Best of luck to him in the next part of his life.
Gratterola in trial GP? He didnt make it when he was younger now hes over 30 hows that gonna work.
cant see beta having him as a top class rider now.
The question that interests me is why has there been so little challenge to the established top riders of Bou, Raga, Fajardo, Fujinami, Cabestany (before his retirement) for the best part of a decade. Busto is a top 3 rider, Casales maybe a top 5 rider, but that's about it. It seems to me that emerging riders are unable to develop to the same level as the previous generation, but I honestly have no idea why.
The change in rules from stop allowed to "no stop" meant riders like cabestany got a few more years. Certainly helped fuji carry on too.
There is always another car or van out there, if you can be patient. If any of the above cause worry, walk away. If you dont think anythings not genuine ditto.
Brits in Trial GP / Trial GP overall
in World Championship Chat
Posted
I see, needs some thought. My off the cuff is 1) rules need sorting and a concensus agreed 2) the whole financial aspect needs to be organised, as does the promotion and admin of the events.