What Is Trials

[twhy]

Im with Jack on this one aswell.. . the non-stop rule just causes problems for observers and i think its a silly one . How slow can you go before it becomes a stop ,, when is a bounce at the top of a climb not a hop . if you wanted to stick to the non-stop rule then just do pre65 trials maybe. Things Change... getover it......

[ishy]

if you wanted to stick to the non-stop rule then just do pre65 trials maybe. Things Change... getover it......

We can't!! big John bought all remaining pre 65 machines and is saving them for the next great flood.

[einstein]

all im trying to say is hopping, balancing and other techniques are all part of the sport - why try to limit them?

I'm sorry to say that argument is fundamentaly flawed. If hopping etc is part of the sport, then it stands to reason that if hopping etc is against the rules, then it's not part of the sport.

Where does it say that hopping is against the rules? It certainly is not against the FIM rules. I believe one must keep moving forward in a British trial to not fall foul of the rules. I do think that there maybe some trials snobbery going on here.

[old trials fanatic]

Well said Ishy it is only a game.

"I believe one must keep moving forward in a British trial to not fall foul of the rules." There you go Einstein it's called the NO STOP RULE so according to you you are in favour of it. Good lad youve seen the light

Here's a thought about another game.

I love to play snooker. I'm crap at it. Actually i'm worse at snooker than i am at trials so that tells you how crap i am.

Anyway those of you that have been to matches where the top names play are usually treated to a display of "trick shots" and "skills" by some of the top players who all have a little show of their own to entertain the public. These spots usually involve bottles, glasses and sometimes members of the public all used as props for the players to display their "techniques". It's amazing to watch and extremely skillful.

However i have yet to know of ANYBODY who suggests that we start to put obsticles like ashtrays and bottles on a snooker table just so some of the players can demonstrate what a good trick shot player they are.

Quite often you find that the best "trick shot" player is only a mediocre snooker player or a has been just trying to "extend" his career a little bit longer.

I can almost visualise the furrow appearing in the hair gel of some on this board as this post screams over their head.

The phrase "if you have to ask you wouldnt understand the answer" comes to mind and fits rather well methinks.

Almost divides into two camps. You can bet the "came from bicycle trials" lot want to gaily skip and hop to their hearts content whilst riders from the "Motor Cyclist who have taken up Trials" camp think it's about choosing a line and, i know this is contentious, riding it.

Anybody got any stats for the success rate of "pogoers" in proper Trials like the SSDT and the Scott as against "proper riders" ? I know the top 10 in the sport will always shine but wonder where the hop, roll back, hop, roll back, hop, help where's me minder i need someone to tell me where to go skills do much to assist them in real trials as against the circus big top.

There you knew it was coming

Edited February 20, 2007 by Old trials fanatic

[bikespace]

Britain thrives on sentimentality I'm not entirely sure its genuine here though. I was brought up on trials through the 70's and 80's and we could roll backwards in them days as long as we kept our feet up.

I really don't know which rules I prefer. I can hop around to a certain extent, but the young 'uns slaughter me when it's tight. If it's rideable without hopping I tend to do better, but I still like to see the skill of balancing.

I remember being amazed when I first saw what at the time we referred to as a Spanish Three, where you could STOP with your foot (or feet) down and still get through without a 5. Where's the skill in that we would say.

I agree - good one for Rappers - unless of course he gets it wrong which inevitably he will for a large percentage - the opinion is so divided.

[boofont]

How slow can you go before it becomes a stop

As slow as you want as long as you're moving forward. When you stop moving forward you've stopped, therefore its a stop.

One point about the No Stop Rule is that the sections don't need to be timed. How long can a rider be in a section for if he can stop? Long enough to change a throttle or something similar? A trial would last all day, its hard enough to get 100 riders through on No Stop.

I would say the best rider is one who knows how to use all the tools, and when to use the right tool for the job. I've got loads of hammers in the garage, I don't use the biggest one for every job. Why? Because I know that on some jobs I'll do more damage than good. I recall a trial a few weeks ago when a pal of mine rode over a root by double-blipping. It caused dab for him, I suggested he just ride it as if it wasn't there, just lift the front a little. Guess what? A clean! Sure, the double-blip looks cool but as Ishy has said, these things can cause dabs, and a dab is a mistake I believe?

[outlaw dave]

Hey Chader - If you want to ride a trial with rules that allow you to hop bop or whatever

come ride the Annual Outlaw Trial in British Columbia - It goes every May long weekend.

The snag is that I lay out 99% of the sections so that trick riding isn't required - I think

it's fantastic to see the skills of the young guys, and therefore don't set up rules that penalize

them for either stopping,hopping or rolling back. - The Trial's been going on for over 20 years

with young and old enjoying the sport without too much confusion. - Like Ishy says

"Its a game - all about having fun"- you can check out details of the Trial on my website

www.outlawtrials.com - ( Hope it's OK to post this Andy?)

[chader]

Thanks Dave, I will certainly look into that event.

On the stop penalty, is it allowed to use the front brake to lift the rear tire and pivot to change direction? It may be possible to do this with the front wheel rolling, but not always.

I understand the theory of the non-stop just fine, but I think it could lead to alot of questionable calls. Some are clear cut for sure. It just seems like a can of worms.

As to people taking to long in sections without a stop rule, just use a time limit for the section. We use 2 minutes and if you aren't out before the buzzer, you get a 5.

As always there are many ways to skin a cat.

And just because I come from a bicycle background doens't mean I plan to hop every damn section. I just want the freedom to use any skills I have to clean a section. Rules are rules and it we had no-stop, I would follow that. It just seems like old-school thinking to me.

Edited February 21, 2007 by Chader

[old trials fanatic]

As to people taking to long in sections without a stop rule, just use a time limit for the section. We use 2 minutes and if you aren't out before the buzzer, you get a 5.

And just because I come bicycle too doens't mean I plan to hop every damn section. I just want the freedom to use any skills I have to clean a section. Rules are rules and it we had no-stop, I would follow that. It just seems like old-school thinking to me.

OK 100 entries x 2 mins = 200mins x 10 sections = 2000 mins x 4 laps = 8000 mins = 133.33 hours = 5.55 days are you real

Or are you suggesting every trial is like the SSDT?

Ahh know what you mean. I dont know why the organisers wont let me use my skills with the MiG welder to fit a monoshock back end to the B40. I mean it's just so "old skool thinkin" innit?

Edited February 20, 2007 by Old trials fanatic

[barrybaines]

Where is the repeat untill you get bored of reading the same thing over and over again button?

Just fancy saving you all the hassle of writing your feelings down! as said before each rider has their favoured way of riding and that IS all this topic is going too attract

[chader]

OK 100 entries x 2 mins = 200mins x 10 sections = 2000 mins x 4 laps = 8000 mins = 133.33 hours = 5.55 days are you real

Or are you suggesting every trial is like the SSDT?

Ahh know what you mean. I dont know why the organisers wont let me use my skills with the MiG welder to fit a monoshock back end to the B40. I mean it's just so "old skool thinkin" innit?

Bad math on your part. One rider can ride each section at the same time as 9 others in the other sections(per your example). So, your wrong by a factor of 10 to start with.

2 minutes was just an example. It works fine for our comps which have far fewer than 100 riders. You could use any time that was appropriate. 30 seconds to 1.5 minutes or whatever. You could even choose a time that is similar to straight riding if you wanted to discourage stops. I doubt a rider could complete a normal section any faster than 30 seconds unless they are in the wrong class.

If I'm wrong on my estimate above, then just show me some example vids with a lines start-to-finish. Normal trials ain't drag racing. It is supposed to be difficult and take more time than plain trail riding.

I have been respectful throughout this discussion and just tried to explain a different point of view. Seems you are unwilling or unable to do the same. At least I am willing to listen to another opinion and consider it fully before throwing it out like garbage.

You can stick your and your bad attitude where the sun don't shine.

Edited February 21, 2007 by Chader

[ruffrider]

Okay, my pen'th.

I agree with Jack that TRIALS is about crossing difficult terrain under control.

However, to make TRIALS into a competition there must be way to score it and that introduces rules. Then, as was mentioned, if the better rider can cross the terrain without stopping then he/she should be rewarded.

[old trials fanatic]

OK 100 entries x 2 mins = 200mins x 10 sections = 2000 mins x 4 laps = 8000 mins = 133.33 hours = 5.55 days are you real

Or are you suggesting every trial is like the SSDT?

Ahh know what you mean. I dont know why the organisers wont let me use my skills with the MiG welder to fit a monoshock back end to the B40. I mean it's just so "old skool thinkin" innit?

Bad math on your part. One rider can ride each section at the same time as 9 others in the other sections(per your example). So, your wrong by a factor of 10 to start with.

2 minutes was just an example. It works fine for our comps which have far fewer than 100 riders. You could use any time that was appropriate. 30 seconds to 1.5 minutes or whatever. You could even choose a time that is similar to straight riding if you wanted to discourage stops. I doubt a rider could complete a normal section any faster than 30 seconds unless they are in the wrong class.

If I'm wrong on my estimate above, then just show me some example vids with a lines start-to-finish. Normal trials ain't drag racing. It is supposed to be difficult and take more time than plain trail riding.

I have been respectful throughout this discussion and just tried to explain a different point of view. Seems you are unwilling or unable to do the same. At least I am willing to listen to another opinion and consider it fully before throwing it out like garbage.

You can stick your and your bad attitude where the sun don't shine.

Didnt know i wasnt being "respectful" ??? or had a "bad" attitude.

Whatever perhaps youre not used to a robust discussion wherever you come from. Do you ever encounter irony over there ?

Yes being a bit contentious with the maths but do we really want to have observers juggling stopwatches and a board and pencil in the freezing pouring rain so somebody can show off? Perhaps. Dont know.

Very few sections take 30 secs to ride anyway. Well perhaps your way?

Most sections that took longer than 30 seconds to ride would result in hold ups that would cause massive problems to the running of an event.

I was pondering this today at work. Forget all the other riders imagine they dont exist. Most laps even missing sections altogether take ? say 20 mins. Average 5 laps so 1hr 40 mins ish. Remember it's not a moto cross. Lets call it 1hr 30. You suggested 2 mins but i would think 30 secs more than adequate unless you like a kip half way through. So 10sections per lap = 50 sections @ 30 secs per section = 25 mins + 1hr 30m = approx 2 hrs assuming no other riders were entered. However ! most trials aim for 100 entries but lets say only 60 turned up as it's not a very popular event, too many trick sections say, that means potentially 6 riders queueing at every section and that means a minimum 3 min delay for every section so 3mins x 50 sections = 2hrs 30 mins waiting time to be added to the 2 hours above. so total time to ride the trial approx 4hrs 30 mins.

Now i know you dont like my maths and i have tried to make these figures more realistic but surely you can see the problem especially when you add riders hanging about for a rock to move etc.

I have no problem with riders wanting to show off in sections if thats the way they get their rocks off but and it's a big but as there have been a lot of trials lately affected by riders going over the total time limit, you must bear it in mind. "modern" riding "styles" do very little to help a Trial keep moving.

Barry Baines was right about the repeat button it has all been said before and it will always come down to personal preference and attempting to gain a fiar or unfair, depends on wether you can or cant, advantage.

If you think all thats Disrespectful, sorry cant do the stupid hand gesture, or i am dissing you then try getting out more.

I shall now take my bad attitude where the sun dont shine.

Thanks for the compliment.

Thank god for the atlantic. Thats irony by the way.

Edited February 21, 2007 by Old trials fanatic

[boofont]

Old trials fanatic, I'm loving your posts, your humour is really making me smile!

[scottt]

Hopping, bouncing, balancing etc is very skilfull, i love watching people do it, it looks good and it shows great control, but on the other hand its also great watching a skilfull rider pick his way through a section, never stopping but using his skills to position the bike for the next obsticle, I cant do neither.

But as sections get tighter and tighter so in the end you have to hop or your never going to get round, what happens then? Are we going to turn up for a trial and tick which boxes on the application:

Hopping novice

Hopping green

Hoppping expert

Non hoppping novice

Non hopping green

Non hopping expert

Divide all that by Expert, clubman, veteran, Pre 65, twinshock etc etc you going to end up with more classes than riders, there will be so many different coloured flags on each section most people will just get lost.

Theres no real answer we all have 'our' way that we want to ride, but at the end of the day its down to the people that set up and organise the trials, if you dont like the way its run then vote with your feet and go elsewhere.

I 5 on most sections so its not going to effect me, lol.

Scott.