nigel dabster Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 The comparisons are difficult when they all come from different decades, and just the same as Dougie and Jordi opinions differ as to who is/was the best. Mercx was riding very different tours and in a time when teams didn't have the influence and effect that big m made an art form. The fact that Armstrong has made winning the tdf his only goal in any year detracts from his chance to ever become one of cyclings greats. Paul Kimmage's Rough rider is the insight which should have changed cycling but never did, put me back on my bike is essetial reading as is Armstrongs best, its not about the bike, gives a great insight into why he has had the success he has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 Dougie is the best of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapshot 3 Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 Which is why I said tdf. Mercx is my all time favourite although having seen Jan Jansen as a boy he was my hero, to win a tdf from his country was special.Notice you didn't mention Induran? Coppi Bartali and Anquetils records in the tdf are significantly worse than lance so can't see your point at all, explain why they are better? Certainly.... Your original statement was "Armstrong is the best rider the t d f has ever seen. " looking at Eddy's stats it's certain that he's had a better TDF career than Armstrong even though Armstromng has won the GC more often. I didn't mention Indurain, (which is probably a disservice) but for similar reasons I wouldn't put him near Merckx. Bartali in particular would have won numerous tours had the second world war not intervened. Coppi similarlyhad the war not intervened certainly in his early career they would have set the benchmarks. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying Armstrong is a bad rider just people need to look beyond 7 wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 Certainly....Your original statement was "Armstrong is the best rider the t d f has ever seen. " looking at Eddy's stats it's certain that he's had a better TDF career than Armstrong even though Armstromng has won the GC more often. I didn't mention Indurain, (which is probably a disservice) but for similar reasons I wouldn't put him near Merckx. Bartali in particular would have won numerous tours had the second world war not intervened. Coppi similarlyhad the war not intervened certainly in his early career they would have set the benchmarks. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying Armstrong is a bad rider just people need to look beyond 7 wins. 7 wins is seven wins ask Eddy which he would prefer and I bet he would swap his record for two more wins, put as simply as i can in seven tours Armstrong won. He was seven times consecutive the best rider on the tour. Detail is not the complete picture and to win the tour winning many stages probably upset a few riders of the time anyway. Armstrong I feel has sometimes won calculated victories by preparing better and doing what has to be done, Mercx was much more an intuative rider, so because of the two extra lance gets the nod by looking behind the 7 wins as much because of what he went through to get there as much as anything. (have you read his books?) Wars are unfortunate and maybe or maybe not those two would/could have, we cannot compare what didn't happen surely? Big mig was different he was unemotive with once he had the best and was an excellent tt expert which even caused the organisers to re think the tt stages. Again because he won as he did should not take away the fact? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapshot 3 Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 Okay, we perhaps have a different perspective on it. Then again, I'm not a fan of Armstrong in fact the worst thing that's happened to pro-cycling in recent times is that he's back on the bike. I used to be, I have all his books and all the eulogies to his greatness by John Wilcockson, Dan Boyle etc etc etc. I also have Rough Ride by Paul Kimmage (one of my favourite journalists), Bad Blood, by Jeremy Whittle, LA Confidential by David Walsh and Pierre Ballester and the new one, Laurent Fignon's book is on order. I can't support the lie that he's perpetrated, there's a world of difference between being clean and never failing a drugs test, have a look at the linky below as an example. Clicky As you said before, different eras, different sports basically, there will always be the urge to pick the greatest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted July 12, 2009 Report Share Posted July 12, 2009 If you smoked a joint back in the 70's, and did not inhale, do they still count that against you? George W. Or was that Bill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 copemech Posted Yesterday, 01:24 AM If you smoked a joint back in the 70's, and did not inhale, do they still count that against you? George W. huh.gif Or was that Bill? I think it was Bill...............Listening to George W. speeches I would not be surprised if he inhaled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b40rt Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 I think it was Bill...............Listening to George W. speeches I would not be surprised if he inhaled He certainly blew it out his a** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 And a 2p napkin would have saved Monica's sweater! Cannot blame Bill, look at Hillary! Still cannot believe it , she is a B form H! Perfect for the post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapshot 3 Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 And a 2p napkin would have saved Monica's sweater!Cannot blame Bill, look at Hillary! Still cannot believe it , she is a B form H! Perfect for the post! Yeah, but lusting after Sarah Palin is probably a bad thing for a man of your advancing years mate, Hillary is probably bout as good as it gets which reminds me of a film I saw recently,...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofasttim Posted July 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Wars are unfortunate Try telling that to the 20 odd million that perished in WWII. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) Try telling that to the 20 odd million that perished in WWII. plonker, why take it out of context all that proves is that you have nothing of value to say in this thread so why bother? For the primary schoolkids "wars are unfortunate (when they obscure who may have ridden well in the years 39 to 45 as at that time France was occupied) when comparing riders. Clear enough. Actually it was more like 60 million so add imprecise to the list. Edited July 17, 2009 by Nigel Dabster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Saw the 11th stage it was brilliant to see the thing live. Although it was only a fraction of one day still a great spectacle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofasttim Posted July 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Dabster, firstly I used the death toll in greater Europe (including Russia), but yes 60 million in the greater scheme of things is closer to the truth. Secondly, your statement was crass and appropriate for only social scientists or politicians. Thirdly, I certainly do not have your or Slapshots encyclopedic knowledge of the TDF, nor do I claim to. For this reason I haven't commented on the event. Indeed I have enjoyed learning for the two of you. Now get over it and accept your rebuke like a man and, in future, be a little more careful in your choice of words. You have been chastised for this in the past, I would have thought that an intelligent man like you would have learned his lesson by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 He, he! This was just getting good! Awe, nevermind, I think I recall Lance getting a trials bike sometime back, as a cross trainer. Maybe he will retire and come ride some trials with us here in Texas. I could be his minder! Just to be there at this point is enough for most, look at Doug as example, still great! These are some tough lot, each in their own right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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