baldilocks Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 re previous post and rules being stop permitted for those riding BTC. How many riders from the SE centre ride in the BTC ? At the moment we have a BTC set up to prepare about 6 - 8 people for the WTC We then have centres keeping stop permitted to prepare the 6 or maybe less people who ride BTC per centre, yorkshire is probably and exception in terms of numbers. seems the sport is prioritising a minority..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) The Yorkshire Centre is evenly Split regarding Stop and No Stop. In the case of Yeadon Guiseley the riders determined that the club switched to STOP. The Best riders in the Centre come from clubs riding STOP. The top two clubs competing for the best club in the centre have TSR22A Stop rules. The Yorkshire Centre is NOT a No-Stop area. Yes Ripon and Richmond have Large entries but neither can compete at Centre level as they have fewer of the best riders. In the case of Ripon to be frank they only have one Centre level rider. He is pretty good as well!!!! but not because he rides Ripon trials which apart from the Centre events they hold are basic Beginners and Novice Trials. They do not even have a club championship. What does this say about Trials? Well basically a lot of riders want easy Trials. Well that's fine and I hear a lot about putting a "few" hard setions into S3 Trials and making that the "new" BTC. Again fine, But there arre already two courses on the S3. You put in some harder sections and you WILL get riders whinging about how hard it is and they need a 50/50 and make the easier course easier. All the time the sport gets Easier. Meanwhile the riders who want a "Hard" course are short changed. The Problem is it is a leisure sport. The Bikes cannot be used sensibly on the road. That limits the numbers. It's the same in all Motorsport except where the cars/bikes are all the same. you have 5-10 people who can win and the rest fighting over the minor placings. They aren't called "Aliens" in Motogp for nothing. Edited November 17, 2011 by Telecat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilc0 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 On the subject of should the WTC become No stop yes ofcourse it should. I know people have pointed out it does'nt matter if the rules are stop or no stop because there will still be only a handfull of riders in the world that have the quality to ride them no matter what rule it is, this is true, however the run of the mill trials rider would just like to go and watch a WTC and be thrilled by what they see this does'nt seem to be happeneing or if it does it dont get talked about much, would the Fort william WTC still be going ahead next year if the rule was no stop, i believe it would simply because it takes a crowd to make the WTC viable and not so much how many riders are competing in it. Look at that red bull freestyle MX, another sport which just has a handfull of riders competing in that yet the stands are jammed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 On the subject of should the WTC become No stop yes ofcourse it should. I know people have pointed out it does'nt matter if the rules are stop or no stop because there will still be only a handfull of riders in the world that have the quality to ride them no matter what rule it is, this is true, however the run of the mill trials rider would just like to go and watch a WTC and be thrilled by what they see this does'nt seem to be happeneing or if it does it dont get talked about much, would the Fort william WTC still be going ahead next year if the rule was no stop, i believe it would simply because it takes a crowd to make the WTC viable and not so much how many riders are competing in it. Look at that red bull freestyle MX, another sport which just has a handfull of riders competing in that yet the stands are jammed. Fort William had a number of problems none related to the rules. The area is well setup for the SSDT but two major Trials in an area miles away from anywhere? Yes it is setup for tourists so in theory there is plenty of accommodation. However for the SSDT it's just coming out of "low" season and the SSDT kick starts the year. At the time of the WTC the Tourist season is in full flow with accommodation at a premium. The distance for most isn't a problem for the SSDT after all it's a full week. For the WTC 1 or 2 day event it's a long way off the main roads just to go for that event. For a WTC it's not an ideal venue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 This is the only forum worth following at the moment ..excellent..it is very hard to "rise" above it and understand what is being said and retain a passionate interest in it. however it does seem to be developing into a sort of concencus; i.e there are two forms to our sport, One is increasingly becoming more specialized /esotoric and is within the realms of ability of fewer competitors. This form of trials has been encouraged and promoted internationally at the highest level, for youngsters it remains as something to aspire to, for those of us who have concluded it's not within our abilities it remains entertaining. The other is more traditional and inclusive of just about anybody who can make the effort to get involved, it provides good sport for the majority of us. The trick circus form of trials has grown on the back of traditional trials, it has been possible to accomadate both forms of riding as trick has evolved with multi route sections (which place complicated demands on COC's, the available land etc) and not least the observers. From all I read and hear regarding this discussion it is the observers who will be drawing the line in the sand.....they have already put up with taking on 4 times (or however many laps of a field the trial is) instead of one section with all riders passing within a couple of hours,, now we ask them to watch stop & hop, placing of kickers,distraction techniques and above all disputes regarding thier judgement. I cant help but wish for the good old days when we had single lap trials over plenty of distance where the pleasure was derived from just being there enjoying the scenery, your mates,the craic, you the bike & the section ..whatever. I cant help but think also that if the sales promotional budgets dispered on WTC..glamour, aspiration etc were put into keeping the tracks,lanes rights of way areas of land generally available for sensible trials we would have many more bums on seats, more pleasure, less arguments and a bigger voice or presence in the general picture of motor sport /leisure. Arguing amongst ourselves is OK but we are a divided minority within a minority. In a real world though it is the youngsters who will inherit what's left of trials...they are not stupid but they may not be aware of how good the traditional way of doing it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilc0 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 For the WTC 1 or 2 day event it's a long way off the main roads just to go for that event. For a WTC it's not an ideal venue. How many riders fling there bike in the van and drive hours to ride an event mostly well away from main roads , why, it's because they believe in the trial there going to ride, if they did'nt believe in that specific trial they would'nt of got out of bed. If the WTC current rules was in peoples hearts of hearts they would of splashed the cash no matter what the cost and time to get to fort william. In my mind it's all coming back to what the current set of wtc rules are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) How many riders fling there bike in the van and drive hours to ride an event mostly well away from main roads , why, it's because they believe in the trial there going to ride, if they did'nt believe in that specific trial they would'nt of got out of bed. If the WTC current rules was in peoples hearts of hearts they would of splashed the cash no matter what the cost and time to get to fort william. In my mind it's all coming back to what the current set of wtc rules are. Riders will do that. I've done it myself for my Son. However Spectators asked to spend a lot of money, time and Holiday to get to a area miles off the beaten track for one day? I will be getting tickets for Carlisle. That's because it's easy to get to and I don't need to scrabble for accommodation. If asked I'll even look into being an observer. Edited November 18, 2011 by Telecat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tricky dicky Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 I am guessing Mr Telecat is basically referring in his post that every other club in the Yorkshire Centre is crap apart from Yeadon Guiseley. That couldn't be further from the truth. Yorkshire is obviously a fairly prominent trials area but it's not as prominent with top riders as it used to be. Look at the fact that the Lampkins/ Hemingways, Dan Thorpe, Tony Scarlett, Phil Disney etc have been riding years and years and are still winning most centre trials and even nationals. We need the younger riders to learn how to ride proper trials as hopping and flicking about is false. I don't dispute for 1 minute that it's not skillful and I'm very competent at it myself but it's so boring! The trouble I see is if I'm blatantly honest is that no stop is a leveller and you know for a fact that many of the young hoppers will end up sliding down the results! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasgasjamie Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 To me, whilst all this discussion over the rules at WTC is interesting, in my opinion the rules at that level should be decided by the riders and officials who are associated with that level. We can all talk about what's wrong and what needs changing, but the people who ultimately know the most are the ones who are there week in, week out. Using that logic, the people who should be in charge of change at the club, group and centre level, should be us lot who ride the trials on a regular basis. This is why I am so impressed that the people in charge of the South East Centre Championship have decided to go against the grain and move to no stop. Whether this is the right decision or not, will depend on a riders view point and what a rider wants out of a weekend on the bike. For the top experts, the youth riders who aspire to one next day be the next Dougie Lampkin and anyone else who enjoys the technical element of the trials we get at the moment, the new rules will understandably come as a disappointment. They have spent the last few years perfecting the hop in order to improve their ability and now they must start all over again with non stop style. Also for the dozen or so riders who have aspirations to ride at a higher level, they now have less chance to practice the skills they will need for a national event at a trial that is aimed to be a challenge for them. However, for the other type of trials rider who is bored of the hopping, who would like more variety in a trial, the new rules come as a welcome relief. As the rules were unanimously voted in, I can only presume that this is what the majority of the South Eastern riders want and I must admit I am very pleased about it and hope to ride as many of the rounds next year as I can. Whether or not this move by the centre works is, to me, down to two factors. The first is the clerk of the courses, who now have the responsibility to lay out a trial that can be ridden non stop, but also be challenging enough to ensure that the best rider wins, not the rider who makes the fewest silly mistakes. The second, and equally as important, is the observers. Since I started riding, the rules have changed numerous times from stop and roll back, to stop for a one, to stop but no roll back and non stop. This constant switching of the rules has led to a lot of confusion over the stop rule and also over the countless other rules we have. In no particular order here is a list of scenarios in which I have been given completely different scores over the years: Stopping with foot down Stopping with foot down for more than 10 seconds Leaning on a tree Knee on a bank Stalled with no foot down Stalled with foot down Feet on log/rock at same time as footpeg Foot on ground whilst hand off handlebar Small movement backwards More than three dabs Hitting but not knocking over marker Knocking over marker for different route Now obviously there is a right and a wrong for each of these, and some change depending on which rule is being run, but in my opinion, the constant changing of rules as left some murky areas that in a tight trial can mean the difference between a good day out and a rubbish one. Additionally, the statement from the South East Centre says that there will be a method of determining a stop and I therefore hope that when these new rules are put into place next year, there is at least a little clarity before the first trial takes place so that there is a lot less confusion at the first section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Additionally, the statement from the South East Centre says that there will be a method of determining a stop and I therefore hope that when these new rules are put into place next year, there is at least a little clarity before the first trial takes place so that there is a lot less confusion at the first section. Surely there already is a method of determining a stop? If the bike stops moving forward then it's a stop. Not a pause, or three seconds or ten seconds. A stop is a stop. Be aware of the rule and expect a five if you stop moving forward. Is it not that simple? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasgasjamie Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Surely there already is a method of determining a stop? If the bike stops moving forward then it's a stop. Not a pause, or three seconds or ten seconds. A stop is a stop. Be aware of the rule and expect a five if you stop moving forward. Is it not that simple? On paper yes, and if this is what the South East Centre say is their method for determining a stop then that sits fine with me. However, in the southern centres, there are occasions, on the harder route in particular, where a quick 'pause' in inevitable. Such as, the compression of the forks before a step, or after a big drop off. Sometimes the brakes just have to be used to stop the bike, if for just a second after landing on top of something big. To give a five here would be very harsh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 I am guessing Mr Telecat is basically referring in his post that every other club in the Yorkshire Centre is crap apart from Yeadon Guiseley. That couldn't be further from the truth. Yorkshire is obviously a fairly prominent trials area but it's not as prominent with top riders as it used to be. Look at the fact that the Lampkins/ Hemingways, Dan Thorpe, Tony Scarlett, Phil Disney etc have been riding years and years and are still winning most centre trials and even nationals. We need the younger riders to learn how to ride proper trials as hopping and flicking about is false. I don't dispute for 1 minute that it's not skillful and I'm very competent at it myself but it's so boring! The trouble I see is if I'm blatantly honest is that no stop is a leveller and you know for a fact that many of the young hoppers will end up sliding down the results! Nice Insult!!! There aren't any crap clubs anywhere. Easy Trials just don't breed good riders. As I said the centre championship is between two clubs that run STOP rules and the Centre Championship is run using both sets of rules. Hence where is this "levelling" you refer to. As for the riders you refer to. Well I'm pretty sure Dibs, Jack Challonor, Jon Richardson, Rich Sadler, Zac Sherwin, Danny Gamble etc are names you may have heard of and they do tend to ride pretty well themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tricky dicky Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Yeah I'm fully aware of the riders you mention and I know them all very well. What I've never understood is how the Yorkshire centre championship is run under 2 sets of rules. Not saying its a bad thing at all but surely to compete you have to be able to ride no stop? I think you may find that all the importers are backing the return to no stop as it makes it more of a riders sport which it always has been. The modern technique is quite easily applied and if you watch Toni Bou at his best then he is always moving forward! How many riders would pack up if it went no stop? My guess is not more than a small handful, and how many may be inclined to buy a bike and have another go? Quite a few is my guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ishy Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Easy Trials just don't breed good riders. I think this is it right here!! members putting on events in our local club once said a very similar thing "if we want good riders we need a lot tougher sections for them to get better on" after seeing the effect this had on entries it was too late many riders had been scared off for good. I bet you get p****d when you see banks and companies getting bailed out at your expense, I see the world championship trials in the same light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_scorpa3 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) I think this is it right here!! members putting on events in our local club once said a very similar thing "if we want good riders we need a lot tougher sections for them to get better on" after seeing the effect this had on entries it was too late many riders had been scared off for good. I bet you get p****d when you see banks and companies getting bailed out at your expense, I see the world championship trials in the same light. Yep, I'll happily put on trials with National severity sections for the hard route if I can get 30 riders to ride that route. As it is from an (average) entry of about 50 I only get six to ten on the hard route. For the customers (sorry paying riders) who hopefully enjoy our events, easier is better. I'm guessing, but from the 80 or so riders who rode in our club series this year, all 80 would happily ride non stop if we introduced it for 2012. And I'd put a weeks wages on the fact that the same riders would still be winning. Pete Edited November 18, 2011 by Pete_Scorpa3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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