asc Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 well having just watched the film for the new rules they've just changed my mind ......oh god what have they done,hope there not going to show this observers,it will confuse them all.i was in favour of no stop ,not so sure now. i suppose time will tell,can see many more arguments with riders/officials.sadly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfc Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 That has just made it even more difficult to determin a stop or not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highscore Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 Nightmare. Momentary stop spotted by observer = 5 Momentary stop not spotted = 0 Did he stop? Or not??? Dabs are now obsolete, it's 5's or nowt. Aaarghh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyl Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 Don't see no difference to stop allowed rules - did he go back or not? Probably did but can't be sure so lets give benefit of the doubt. Riders have been going back without penalty at all levels for last few years so lets just wait for common sense to return and accept we will rely on personal judgment. Billion pound football can't decide if a ball has crossed a line yet so stop/no stop/backwarsd/forwards on a motorbike in the mud in the woods in the back of beyond may be along way down the boffins list. A large percentage of what we all enjoy by riding trials bikes does not change ie chucking a bike up things to the best of our ability and having a good crack with the other riders. SSDT/Scott/S3/Normadale/Sammy Miller's still seems popular for the average Joe rider 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dombush Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) This video is clearly aimed at observing expert / pro level riders and is relevant for national / world championship trials. 90% of club trials riders will simply stop moving forward or not. Much easier to see and observe. Whilst observing this level of riding skills needs explanation, It would be good to see a video that deals with the majority and helps the average volunteer observer. Failure to do this raises more questions than answers for joe average. Really, this is the same point as Jimmyl makes just expressed differently. Edited February 26, 2013 by dombush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neils on wheels Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 I agree that it is pretty ridiculous. The FIM have just gone to a practice area well suited to stop allowed sections & shot a no-stop information video. If that wasn't bad enough they invented quite a few terms and even seem confused between "observe" and "look at". It's very clever of Adam Raga to ride & observe at the same time. Perhaps the FIM are anticipating a lack of observers so getting riders used to writing their own scores on an observers board at the ends cards. I do hope no-stop trials will be on suitable terrain and set out in such a way as to promote flowing riding. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 One thing's for sure, it'll make it far easier for foreign observers to cheat to the benefit of their home riders. That DOES happen, particularly in France and Italy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ducati996 Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 Don't see no difference to stop allowed rules - did he go back or not? Probably did but can't be sure so lets give benefit of the doubt. Riders have been going back without penalty at all levels for last few years so lets just wait for common sense to return and accept we will rely on personal judgment. Billion pound football can't decide if a ball has crossed a line yet so stop/no stop/backwarsd/forwards on a motorbike in the mud in the woods in the back of beyond may be along way down the boffins list. A large percentage of what we all enjoy by riding trials bikes does not change ie chucking a bike up things to the best of our ability and having a good crack with the other riders. SSDT/Scott/S3/Normadale/Sammy Miller's still seems popular for the average Joe rider Hey Jimmy,going off topic a bit where are the conducted trophies that we were promised by the neath club or have they conveniantly forgot about us ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyl Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 One thing's for sure, it'll make it far easier for foreign observers to cheat to the benefit of their home riders. That DOES happen, particularly in France and Italy. It happens with stop alllowed now then so it's not necessarily the rules but those enforcing fair play that needs to change - hence force the term "spanish dab" from before.. When patriotic officials are used we are probably stuffed especially as a country the UK looks to encourage fair play and it appears other countries look to explot self interest. Look at quotas and farm subsidies etc . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosey Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 Nice weather! When you see them do it correctly (no stopish) it makes you wonder why they ever bothered stopping doesn't it? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asc Posted February 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 myself as a rider i actually like nostop ,suits riders who like to ride in a flowing style rather than spend ages hopping about,our local club has changed to nostop and it has really shaken up the results and some riders don't seem to suit no stop rules although i think given time they will change there style to suit ,just that when you've being brought up to ride in a certain way and stop everywhere to suddenly change some seem to be finding hard work.me i'll just ride the same what ever,i don't tend to mess about if i can avoid it. think there will be a few more crashes this season at world level when riders go when usually they' d wait and just get there balance. as an occasional observer at brit champs if i seen this video i'd rather not bother,it looked confusing,very fine lines between what's thopught to be a 5 or a 0. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 All this 'got to learn no stop' stuff is bollocks. Any rider can ride no stop. The problem is with today's bikes and the skills they allow, it is the temptation to stop momentarily to get out of trouble that is the issue, not an inability in skill level to continue moving. Top trials riders have no problem adapting to enduro when they want to do they... a totally different riding style The problem has existed for ages in classic trials which are all non-stop. Get a capable rider on a lightweight modernised pre-65 and if there is a tight-ish turn (and I don't mean a hinge in bike required turn) or a slippery turn that could lose the front wheel and cause a dab, some riders will quickly stop and hop the front for a clean - especially if they feel the front going away. Not because they can't ride no-stop, but because they know that there is a chance of losing the front and having a dab if they do. Having the skill to stop and hop gives them an assured clean as it is highly unlikely they'll get a 5 for it (which is another issue altogether) On original pre65 bikes there was no question of being able to stop and hop out of trouble, you had to take a dab to pull the front back on course. With a modern bike there is a way out, if the rider has the skill to do it. And if they do it quickly enough it will go unpenalised 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 What a bunch of crap that video is! No-Stop failed years ago and will fail again. My wife really has no interest in the sport and just puts up with my silly obsession, but those are the people that going to No Stop is supposed to get interested in the sport. She watched the section with Albert Cabestany doing the rear wheel hops. She said that there is such a minute difference between the stopped and the no stop that it will be difficult to decide. So for the average Joe that decides "hey let's check out this trials thing I have heard about" they go to a world round to see the BEST of the world and the rider has a flawless, awesome looking ride and gets a 5 because of a "hesitation" (translation "stop"). Average Joe will be wondering "what happened, why did the rider get a 5? It looked awesome to me" They will be confused all day. Also, all this talk about designing sections to suit No Stop riding that's all fine and dandy, but am I the only one watching this video that thought "those obstacles look like something I could ride or at least attempt, I thought these were the best riders in the world? Shouldn't they be able to ride stuff that looks impossible?" Sure the FIM may be trying to make the average rider in other motorcycle sports interested in trials and "easier" sections make the spectator believe they could do that. But in the USA anyways it may have the opposite effect. Look at the popularity of FMX the spectators know they can't ride like that but they love to watch it and then go ride their MotoX bikes really fast and dream that they are flying through the air like the FMX guys. But of course this is all just my opinion, and I know we all will not agree. Also the FIM governs, makes rules for World Events but I just don't see how this No-Stop nonsense would help the Club level and National level events. Might as well go ride Enduro and EnduroCross on the "big" bikes and get some respect for "riding the tough stuff". Notice there are no longer trials bikes allowed to compete withe the "big" bikes in EnduroCross in the USA, they got booted to their own class. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 All this 'got to learn no stop' stuff is bollocks. Any rider can ride no stop. The problem is with today's bikes and the skills they allow, it is the temptation to stop momentarily to get out of trouble that is the issue, not an inability in skill level to continue moving. Top trials riders have no problem adapting to enduro when they want to do they... a totally different riding style The problem has existed for ages in classic trials which are all non-stop. Get a capable rider on a lightweight modernised pre-65 and if there is a tight-ish turn (and I don't mean a hinge in bike required turn) or a slippery turn that could lose the front wheel and cause a dab, some riders will quickly stop and hop the front for a clean - especially if they feel the front going away. Not because they can't ride no-stop, but because they know that there is a chance of losing the front and having a dab if they do. Having the skill to stop and hop gives them an assured clean as it is highly unlikely they'll get a 5 for it (which is another issue altogether) On original pre65 bikes there was no question of being able to stop and hop out of trouble, you had to take a dab to pull the front back on course. With a modern bike there is a way out, if the rider has the skill to do it. And if they do it quickly enough it will go unpenalised Today's bikes have moved way forward in design and abilities they provide. Stop and Hop is a progression of the sport. Stop and Hop is a Skill, so is riding No-Stop. Both have their place in trials, usually within the same section. That is why a time limit was instituted to eliminate the standing still for 10 mins in a section. Whether you stopped or not 90 seconds is what you had to work with. You could keep moving forward at a snails pace, get a 2 and still time out at 92 seconds for a 5, or stop and hop and make it out with your 2 at 88 seconds. And yes any rider that chooses to ride No-Stop can continue to do so, the difference is you may want to "drop down a class" to be able to ride that style. Yes it is a bit of a hit to the ego to be riding Intermediate or Sportsman instead of Advanced and Expert or Champ. But as the machines, equipment and riders get better the sections will progress to be harder. I don't think the clubs would like to add another class to accommodate the progression of skill/ability when there is so much complaining about having too many classes now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyt Posted February 27, 2013 Report Share Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) Somebody help me understand................... For an objective moving in one direction, it has to come to a COMPLETE stop to change direction (unless it is an ellipse or circle). All energy has to be killed (or transferred into another form of energy). So, is the new ruling trying to penalize the lack of forward movement or movement period............. If it is trying to penalize the lack of movement then this is impossible as a bike has to stop in oder to change direction. So if a bike is going up a rock and the (as in the PR no stop video) and the rider is on his back wheel and then hops the bike laterally side ways seemingly without stopping. The bike had to have stopped to change direction. If I roll down a hill and then lift the back end of the bike in the air to flick the back end over the wheel is still moving/turning in mid air even though the front wheel is stopped just not moving forward. So, is the new ruling focused on a lack of forward motion or motion period? If it is a lack of motion then a simple device can be hooked up to the bike that detects no movement to the front wheel. The witness to this lack of movement can be a buzzer or lights that the judge can see. If the buzzer or light goes off then the bike has stopped. The device would monitor how long the bike was actually stopped for. Not how long the rider was in the section. We could even goes as far in the brains of this device to have different time delays for each class. That is adjustable on the bike with maybe five different settings. As one progresses through classes you get less time to stop at anyone point in a section. An upper class could say have 5 sec time delay and the lower classes such as a novice 15 seconds. The trials marshall could even deem each section with different time delays for stopping. Harder sections could have a longer time delays assigned to them affording a stop and set up, with no stop type sections having little to no time delay. This then begs the question should the device be monitoring the lack of movement from the front wheel or rear wheel? This device is VERY doable and simple. Edited February 27, 2013 by billyt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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