hannu Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Had a thought on the way home this morning about the clutch.Where's the slave cylinder? answer ,in the clutch cover bathed in red hot oil. Boil brake fluid in the system,what happens Brake fade ! Maybe that's the same process what's going on in the clutch slave. Hence the problem coming when the bikes hot. The clutch just isn't operating ! maybe the fluid is just not so good. Hey hannu ,i've spoken to you at Arkhome i think You did 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrsunt Posted January 17, 2015 Report Share Posted January 17, 2015 Had a thought on the way home this morning about the clutch.Where's the slave cylinder? answer ,in the clutch cover bathed in red hot oil. Boil brake fluid in the system,what happens Brake fade ! Maybe that's the same process what's going on in the clutch slave. Hence the problem coming when the bikes hot. The clutch just isn't operating ! maybe the fluid is just not so good. Hey h7annu ,i've spoken to you at Arkhome i think I think its unlikely to be fluid related due to heat as they'd be more reported problems. Have you opened the clutch cover up to see if anything is a miss? Sounds like a plate issue. Screw waiting for Honda, get new clutch pack, honda, mitani or whichever, get it working properly then sort the warranty after, and put the replacement kit on ebay or keep for spares. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Had a thought on the way home this morning about the clutch.Where's the slave cylinder? answer ,in the clutch cover bathed in red hot oil. Boil brake fluid in the system,what happens Brake fade ! Maybe that's the same process what's going on in the clutch slave. Hence the problem coming when the bikes hot. The clutch just isn't operating ! maybe the fluid is just not so good. Hey hannu ,i've spoken to you at Arkhome i think Place your hand on thar "red hot" clutch cover. Does it burn you? NO, go figure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyted Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Place your hand on thar "red hot" clutch cover. Does it burn you? NO, go figure! Hey copemech ,i'm not a prick so don't make out i'm one.No offence ! I could be wrong , but before i charge in head long ,i 'll be looking at the simple things first. So why would Bou have a cylinder on the outside ? Probably because it contributed to a problem on the inside . Edited January 18, 2015 by shyted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted January 18, 2015 Report Share Posted January 18, 2015 Bou - my guess is so he can easily change / experiment with the piston diameter to give a different feel to the clutch. Also if his clutch mechanism gets broken in a crash it will be quicker to replace, possibly vital in time limited wtc. If your 4Rt were mine I would probably strip and inspect very thoroughly the whole clutch and operating mechanism, but first I would change the fluid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsawyer Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I'm not sure if Bou is using the LH side clutch slave cylinder. Look at the photos from Sheffield. There isn't a good one to see this in the Free Public Photos. But in the TC Supporters Photos look at DSC_0053 & DSC_0055 and you'll see the clutch hose going to the RH side clutch cover the same as production 4RTs. There's still the slave cylinder body on the LH side, but it seems to just be there as a cover on the new case design. I thought I'd seen this in photos from WTC events. As I recall, when Bou and Fuji first appeared with the new engine design, both were using the new LH clutch slave cylinder. But a few events later it looked like Bou's bike had gone back to the old RH actuation while Fuji stuck with the LH actuation. If you see photos of the RH side of Fuji's bike, you'll see a completely different clutch cover from Bou's bike. The different actuation requires a different clutch configuration since it's pushed in opposite directions for disengagement. Then again, maybe my eyes are fooling me. Anyone know for sure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj65 Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I'm not sure if Bou is using the LH side clutch slave cylinder. Look at the photos from Sheffield. There isn't a good one to see this in the Free Public Photos. But in the TC Supporters Photos look at DSC_0053 & DSC_0055 and you'll see the clutch hose going to the RH side clutch cover the same as production 4RTs. There's still the slave cylinder body on the LH side, but it seems to just be there as a cover on the new case design. I thought I'd seen this in photos from WTC events. As I recall, when Bou and Fuji first appeared with the new engine design, both were using the new LH clutch slave cylinder. But a few events later it looked like Bou's bike had gone back to the old RH actuation while Fuji stuck with the LH actuation. If you see photos of the RH side of Fuji's bike, you'll see a completely different clutch cover from Bou's bike. The different actuation requires a different clutch configuration since it's pushed in opposite directions for disengagement. Then again, maybe my eyes are fooling me. Anyone know for sure? Only Fuji and Ogawa use the new clutch, Bou prefers the old one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyted Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Don't think the clutch oil gets hot enough to cause brake oil in the clutch slave to boil. (boiling point is between 180°C wet and 260°C dry) That said, Bou's bike has the clutch slave on the other side of the engine, mounted on the outside. I'm sure there's a good reason for that. Defiantly wouldn't boil , but about the 260 degrees C. there's something you should try . MOTUL GP DOT 4 boils above 300 degrees C . It costs more than ordinary DOT 4 but it is better for the job . The lever feels better and you can now hear the action where as before it was quieter,and although the lever was smooth before It's now snappy . Now i have to go back to work. What is time off ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hannu Posted February 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Well another little nail in the lid of Montesa's quality coffin. As todays trial was cancelled I though I'd spend the day in the garage going over the bike doing a bit of lubrication. OK I've had the bike nearly a year and maybe should have done this long before now but I stripped the rear suspension "dog bone" link down. Now is this a money saving effort or just plain old poor quality but I pull out the long collar on the swinging arm link to find half clean (as it should be) and half tarnished ???. Oh close examination I find that the bearing (non bearing) on the left side has NO needle rollers in it at all !!! Surely this cant be right, the solid link bar has bearings both sides ! Is this more shoddy Montesa workmanship ? Oh and of course no warranty, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the addict Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Well another little nail in the lid of Montesa's quality coffin. As todays trial was cancelled I though I'd spend the day in the garage going over the bike doing a bit of lubrication. OK I've had the bike nearly a year and maybe should have done this long before now but I stripped the rear suspension "dog bone" link down. Now is this a money saving effort or just plain old poor quality but I pull out the long collar on the swinging arm link to find half clean (as it should be) and half tarnished ???. Oh close examination I find that the bearing (non bearing) on the left side has NO needle rollers in it at all !!! Surely this cant be right, the solid link bar has bearings both sides ! Is this more shoddy Montesa workmanship ? Oh and of course no warranty, No, and a year is too long to leave the rear suspension. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hannu Posted February 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 No, and a year is too long to leave the rear suspension. Well its 10 months 18 novice / beginner trials, maybe it is too long but it doesn't get away for the fact that there appears to be a bearing missing 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrsunt Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 (edited) Shoddy maintenance, not honda workmanship..... plenty of grease every 6 weeks and theyll see the year no problems Edited February 1, 2015 by jrsunt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guys Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 A missing bearing, not Honda's poor workmanship? Really? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the addict Posted February 1, 2015 Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 (edited) A missing bearing, not Honda's poor workmanship? Really? I took it they had perished long ago, I grease everything on a new bike and if that had been done if the bearing was missing it would have been picked up before the first ride not 10 months later. I've serviced other peoples bikes and seen virtually no signs of a bearing in the dog bones or linkages as they've never been greased or serviced before, just fell out or disintegrated. I'll apologise now if I'm totally mistaken though, and its possible this is a pdi problem not Honda's? Edited February 1, 2015 by the addict 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hannu Posted February 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2015 Shoddy maintenance, not honda workmanship..... plenty of grease every 6 weeks and theyll see the year no problems Oh sorry you mean if I'd have greased the linkage after six weeks the bearing would have been there ? Silly me 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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