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Should there be another class in Trial GP?

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14 hours ago, baldilocks said:

You'd think the factories would realise this at some point.

Motocross manufacturers have been in denial the last 30 years also, making bikes louder and louder just to gain an extra bhp. Knock 10 dB of every bike and they might just come sociable again. The guys at the top aren't in tune with grass roots. Trials is no different

Edited by faussy
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21 hours ago, baldilocks said:

Totally agree,  trials has been in decline for some time. We have a number of issues but some if not all are related to the volume of sales. 

People can't get sponsorship to cover costs as the factories aren't making enough money. Clubs can't buy land as they don't have the income.

Parts bikes and clothing are all far too expensive as the market is too small to achieve the economies of scale.

And for the environmental lobby we are an easy target, we are a tiny minority with no resources to contest decisions.

The decline in trials has continued regardless of rules and numbers of routes or laps or days in the world championships.

Conclusion,  the WTC doesn't sell bikes.

You'd think the factories would realise this at some point.

It seems we are leaving an era when top riders helped sell bikes and into an era where social media influences, FB, IG, YouTube, etc are more desired to help sell, promote, or endorse, products.

I think bikes are still being sold both new and used to some degree, but the number of people in competition is stagnate, if not in a decline.  I see many people buying bikes to just free ride, ride trails, cross train for enduro etc. In the past most people who bought a bike joined a trials club and participated in or worked on/in events, currently more and more people are just buying bike to just ride, train, and have fun.  Only the people who are really into trials are the ones competing now; the die hards.

Edited by hannon

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Been thinking is  the real problem  the PROFESSIONAL/SPONSORED RIDER , Being able to train 100% of the time have they just simply out grown the sport of trials thus killing WTC  along the way. and left a amature sport run by volunteers trying to play catch up to them  remember they get the cash the sport dose not !

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1 hour ago, on it said:

Been thinking is  the real problem  the PROFESSIONAL/SPONSORED RIDER , Being able to train 100% of the time have they just simply out grown the sport of trials thus killing WTC  along the way. and left a amature sport run by volunteers trying to play catch up to them  remember they get the cash the sport dose not !

My thought would be yes and no. 

I think with the ability to train as much as they do, in a way they do leave the sport behind but I am not sure that is killing WTC.  When I look at the evolution of trials and the more advanced techniques we have today because of the level they are able to work at I think its more gain than loss over all.  

I do believe that the people running things would do well to take a closer look at the big picture and evaluate a better long term plan to improve things.  To be able to consider things like the grass roots of the clubs and what they provide as well as the needs of the factories and organizations (FIM and other national trials groups) and the best possible ways to make minor changes over time and be willing to undo the changes if needed to maximize the return on investment are critical, but I digress. 

Even with that consideration, without the money for the professional riders would we get the improvements in the bikes over time?  Would we get new companies like Vertigo, TRS, etc.? So in another way they help things keep going from a different angle.  

 

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15 hours ago, on it said:

Been thinking is  the real problem  the PROFESSIONAL/SPONSORED RIDER , Being able to train 100% of the time have they just simply out grown the sport of trials thus killing WTC  along the way. and left a amature sport run by volunteers trying to play catch up to them  remember they get the cash the sport dose not !

Total rubbish. There are only a handful of riders who earn decent money, the factories are paying them for a reason? How that spoils anything for club riders im struggling to see the connection.

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10 hours ago, nigel dabster said:

Total rubbish. There are only a handful of riders who earn decent money, the factories are paying them for a reason? How that spoils anything for club riders im struggling to see the connection.

wake up  nigel  what is the topic about ? WTC  i  say again  WTC and just to make sure for you  WTC .WERE DO I SAY ANYTHING ABOUT CLUB RIDERS ??  

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On 12/7/2019 at 1:07 AM, on it said:

 .WERE DO I SAY ANYTHING ABOUT CLUB RIDERS ??  

"and left a amature (sp) sport run by volunteers trying to play catch up to them  remember they get the cash the sport dose not" (correct spelling doesn't)

 Isnt that club riders? WAKE UP

Edited by nigel dabster

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5 hours ago, nigel dabster said:

"and left a amature (sp) sport run by volunteers trying to play catch up to them  remember they get the cash the sport dose not" (correct spelling doesn't)

 Isnt that club riders? WAKE UP

Nigel  is RUN the same as RIDE ?   Thanks for the spelling lesson NIGEL  might not spell right but i understand them --- 

RUN as in  club = put events or organize  ( dont need to be a rider to be a organizer ) ,

AMATURE sport = a person engaged in sport for pleasure rather than monetary gain 

VOLUNTEER = work for a organization without being paid 

RIDER = is a person controlling  movement of what they are in control of (some of the time !) 

PROFESSIONAL =engaged in a activity as one,s main paid occupation rather than as a amature

So yet again where did i say club rider ?   YAWN !

Edited by on it
text

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Here's a crazy idea. It seems the real problem is that the top 2/3 (5?) Riders are so far ahead of the rest. I see two options:

1. Force retire anyone that wins the WTC 3 times. 

2. Have an extra class for those that have won it 3 times but have the official world championship be the other class. 

Basically, which ever way we cut it, the "problem" is the gap between the very top and the rest. I don't see anyone beating Bou until he is too old or too bored with winning. Remove him from the competition and you open it up. Seems like a crazy idea but the alternative is just wait for him and Raga to retire. Which could well be 7 or more years.

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You guys keep trying to "help" an already small class by cutting it up into ever smaller pieces instead of thinking about how to get more people into it. It's short sighted at best. At worst you're advocating telling the best riders in the world they're not wanted anymore. Talk about destroying the validity of the championship...

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This isn't a serious idea but I'm just saying this for explanation. If you had the same ability as Bou you would still need to train harder than him or have a better bike to beat him.

The other manufacturers don't have the resources of Honda. A few years ago the factory 4rt was lighter than ragas gas gas. That's a lot more cost than a few titanium bolts but Honda can afford it. The much criticised minimum weight attempts to address this. I expect the other bikes are merely tweaked production bikes ?

Then if you look at the top riders videos they have at least one minder with them every time they go out and someone else working the video.

It's very difficult for an up and coming rider to be able to train like this and get a factory bike. Unless the parents have enough cash for the rider not to work but to practice all week on an indoor trial course they have also bought they will never compete with Bou.

It needs some kind of spending cap like F1 or limit on practice. Impossible to enforce I know but the best riders currently have all of the resources.

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No new class, The best are the best and should be celebrated as such.

World Trials is entertaining and amazing and does very little to nothing to bring more riders to the sport.  (as far as I have seen)

To even the playing field:

Keep the dreaded minimum weight rule (make it realistic so that a standard production bike meets it)

Bikes used in World Trials Competition MUST be a production bike - only "tweaks" available are existing aftermarket bits that are available to the public.

and if those two don't cut it maybe cap the number of tweaks allowed, so the rider will have to choose between greatest suspension and maximum horsepower or some such.

 

 

Just thoughts, I am not exactly adamant they will work, my mind can be changed.  Discuss

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I think the bike has zero to do with any of this. Sure, Honda can throw more money at the bike, but if the bike were the deciding factor Fuji would be on the podium every round. We all know trials is 95% rider. Bou trains hard to stay where he is. So does Fajardo of late, and look at the resurgence he's had.

The minimum weight limit is constantly trotted out as some sort of Honda conspiracy. Well, here are some other things prohibited by the rules, and I submit that if they weren't in here, it doesn't take much imagination to envision what Honda might be able to do that none of the other manufacturers could without going bankrupt.

----------------------------

- no supercharging
- no telemetry
- the use of titanium in the construction of the frame, the front forks, the handlebars,
the swinging arms, the wheel- and swinging arm-spindles is forbidden.
- no CF for handlebars or rims
- no ceramics
- electronically controlled throttle valves are forbidden
- the overall width of the tyre when fitted must not exceed 115 mm (plus some other tread block spacing, etc rules). They also can't be one-offs, they have to be available for sale to the public.
- some rules around permitted fuels, octane, etc.

-------------------------

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For anybody who thinks Bou’s bike is what makes him so capable, I invite them to watch the video below. 
 

 

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22 hours ago, heffergm said:

You guys keep trying to "help" an already small class by cutting it up into ever smaller pieces instead of thinking about how to get more people into it. It's short sighted at best. At worst you're advocating telling the best riders in the world they're not wanted anymore. Talk about destroying the validity of the championship...

Maybe another route will bring in more guys? If there was a middle class could that be a step closer for the top trial 2 riders and then the now trial 2 class could bring in more young riders?

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