What Would It Take?

[alan bechard]

Folks will be more likely to accept adding a number to their class names (I think) then they are willing to accept changing the order of the names.

But just as you are saying 5, I always think in terms of 6.

[wayne thais]

Al, If numbers are a problem why not use letters.

In my neck of the woods, the top Hare Scrambles riders are "A" riders, then "B" and then "C".

Go with:

AAA - If required

AA - This is the class for riders above expert, call them Champ if you want.

A - This is todays expert - if he were riding NATC he would ride the Expert line

B - This is the rider who would ride the NATC E/S line

C - This is the rider who would ride the NATC Support Line (Sportsman class or age graded class) Todays Advanced class.

D - Probably today's Intermediate

E - Between Intermediate and Novice

F - Novice

G - New rider

You could have a BB or a CC class etc. if the particular club required it.

In drag racing the top class is the AA Top Fuel Class if I remember correctly.

Some more food for thought.

Wayne

[alan bechard]

Max, Dabney and others that utilize 5 lines in your club. (expert being the top, no National Champ level lines)

Do you think you could "sell" to your club the idea of your club having Line 2,3,4,5,and 6 and your current top line being #2?

Or do you think it would go over better that the expert line is line A and a champ line is AA and a world line I guess would be AAA.

At some point, this has gone from being a simple, hey, lets all use the same names, to something very obtuse. I guess that is why they say that a Camel is a horse designed by a committee.

Anyway, straight up answer from you guys in a 5 line club?

[mich lin]

Alan your on the right track, anything is better than what we have now. Which is mass kaos!

[copemech]

Hummmmm,

We're not talkind about underwear sizes, single digits will do!

1-6 or A-F with a basic class N-A-M-E, for C-L-U-B structure O-N-L-Y !

The clubs are a ramp to the nationals, WTC and such. As in the UK it seems, nothing more.

Glad to here they are as bad as us in the class names and structure!

[ridgrunr]

Hey guys, been gone for a week snorkeling in the Keys. It was great and we just missed Alberto!

Lots of discussion on the class thing. Let's not give up now as we are almost there!

I'm thinking it's time we bit the bullet and just admitted that at some time in everyone's Trials career...everyone is a Beginner and start there. None of us were born with these bikes glued to our feet.

So if that is the case, and building on Alan's ideas, we have:

1 Champ...You know who these guys are. Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound types.

2 Expert...Able to conquer large steps and obstacles, understanding use of suspension, throttle and clutch to overcome difficult situations. Usually have superior balance and confidence. Do not need obvious dabs and can confidently navigate difficult terrain and plan for unforseen events. Often the top class in most clubs. Able to compete in ES or E lines at an NATC national.

3 Advanced...Experienced rider with good bike control. Knows the basics and can use them. Not so scared of obstacles that don't have dabs available. Able to execute some advanced trials manuevers, floater turns, hops, zaps etc. Able to control both ends of the bike. Could succesfully complete a NATC national in the sportsman line.

4 Intermediate...Middle of the road kind of guy, many club riders ride this class. Usually experienced and understands basic technique abilities with decent balance, brake, throttle and clutch control. Usually knows where his front wheel needs to be and can put it there, but usually hopes the rear wheel just keeps up. Can do whelies, but probably doesn't trick ride. Obstacles are getting larger and can usually accomplish double blips, suspension loading, full lock turns and such as needed. Should ensure there is at least a dab on one side most of the time.

5 Novice...Probably the adult, experienced dirtbike rider, beginner class. Understands necessity to stand up and has basic control of brakes, clutch and throttle, but not much understanding of basic techniques. Can do mild obstacles but still need plenty of setup and runout room with secure dabs on both sides. Sections need to be fun but not scary as this is the class where we get them hooked for life.

6 Beginner... Very first time riders and probably kids who probably don't have much control of the bike. Probably aren't comfortable standing on the pegs yet. These folks obstacles consist of very small logs and obstacles generally under 12' or so, lots of tight turns, no clutch and little front brake if any is usually needed to negotioate their sections. There is plenty of runout room and care is taken to avoid placing them in situations that if they "freeze" on the controls, they would not be in trouble.

What do ya think? I just don't know how we can make it any simpler or usable.

Florin

Edited June 13, 2006 by Ridgrunr

[no jive]

Bullseye, perfect, good job, cant get any better than that. Should not even need a vote.

Been following this and that was the best so far. Everyone can relax now.

Who the HECK is Doc Holiday.

Edited June 13, 2006 by No Jive

[dabney footsmore]

1 Champ

2 Expert

3 Advanced.

4 Intermediate

5 Novice

6 Beginner

What do ya think?  I just don't know how we can make it any simpler or usable.

Florin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now just add an A to F on the other side of each one, so any club can call it what they want, but still use the letter or number to define the skill required.

[wayne thais]

Alan,

There appears to be some form taking place, if you were to set the top classes so that the top club rider would ride the NATC Expert Class, the next lower rider would ride the E/S class and then the next lower rider would ride the Support/Sportsman class.

So:

1. Or A. Champ - NATC Expert

2. Or B. Expert - NATC E/S

3. Or C. Advanced - NATC Support/Sportsman

Many rider have a goal of someday riding the NATC National series, with class designations like the three above they would know where to ride.

The lower classes could be:

4. Or D. Intermediate

5. Or E. Novice

6. Or F. Beginner

Clubs who have other classes could easily adjust, the key I think, is to have common names/requirement for the top three so they conicide with the NATC classes.

Trials Inc: http://www.trialsinc.org/

Has some very good rules: http://www.trialsinc.org/Rules/rules.html

They have a very defined set of classes:

COMPETITION CLASSES FOR T.I.

YOUTH B

This is a class for the very new youth rider. It is usually used for the first time riders, riders being introduced to formal competition. It should be viewed as a class to encourage new youth riders.

YOUTH A

This is a class for the experienced youth rider. These riders understand the Sport and are developing the basic trials skills.

NOVICE

This is a class for the very new rider. It is usually used for the first time riders, riders being introduced to formal competition . It should be viewed as a class to encourage new riders.

SENIOR

This is a class based on the rider

[sting32]

I think 78% of the posters putting up "lets call em this" lists: on here are missing the whole point and Nothing but the point...

The whole point of re-unifying and-or standardizing the class structure a bit, is to make it so when people travel or have a goal about riding a national level competition...

Let me use me, for example: I, am profoundly thinking I am an intermediate level or 3 level rider at My club, mayebe nationwide if PRO = 0. Lets now lets say, within the next year, I travel anywhere from to Cali to Rhode Island... WIth a new class structure in place, I can faithfully know I wont be mistakenly entered into "intermediat" class out there which is actually skill level 2, nor sandbaging into the level 4 "intermediate" class at some club. (AGAIN! 1 being someone closely good enough to attempt to ride either USA pro, BUT at least should be competing as "Expert or above" at the nationals, 2 being E-S, 3 being sportsman)...

So we need to do the nameing or numbering ASAP! & by GOlly, SOmeone my have to be "GOD" and say "make it so" and let the beyotching begin all down the ranks, so what? it will die down eventually, and each year the competitors will influence this at the club level, trust me... Right now, most club's I bet are having majority percent of the work done by the same top few riders who also want to place well at the nationals that they do attend!

Because, Once this has taken place (just getting the names\levels the same more or less) then there will eventually have to be some tweaking of each club's perception of the #1 class, be it called the MASTER, CHAMP, whatever it is called the level set for competition lines. That will shake out over time as club #1 level riders (or even #0 Pro riders) enter the Nationals in the Correct classes now, will know that "hey our club #1 class is not tough enough...

AVTA in ks is laid out like spinner said, 0=pro, 1=master, 2=expert, 3=intermediat, 4=amature, 5=novice, 6=beginner. it would not matter if I marked the sections with 1 or MadHatters, 2 or pALOMINO, 3 or Camaros, it changes nothing, yet...

So as you can see, renaming of the the classes at club levels, doesnt & shouldnt make a bit of difference to the clubs at all, just keeps everything easy from that point forward.

But at some point the Skill set to feel confident in a particular class level (0-6 or if you like 0-20, I dont care) needs to be universal! Which then in turn leads to me knowing that since I am an Intermediat or 3, when I go to a nationals and ride support class lines, I am NOT in Master Class lines, competing with Riders from Master skill (#1 level) & Not competing against #1 or #2 riders.

I would assume at this writing I could at least complete the loops at basic support lines, I dont assume I could win, but I should be able to assume I have enough skills to attempt the sections within reasonable expectations that I have the skills (not the stamina per se) to complete each section.

Now if you want to say my club's Masters, since they rode (ES=Expert-Sportsman) at the nationals, means technically they are not #1 level riders, anywhere except at AVTA Trails Club in Wichita KS? Right? Right! So technically they should be called Experts at AVTA, I should be called an Amature (4), and we dont have any Masters So be it, AT LEAST Ill know, you will know and everyone will know what level each of us are...

Not trying to kill any egos (especially if fellow AVTA members are reading this)... just worked out that they were good EXAMPLES of what I am talking about...

[axulsuv]

I think Florin said (stated it correctly)

Keep it simple stupid ....

Glenn

[copemech]

WOW Sting,

Im not sure I could GOOGLE all that!

I do know that you are a good int.(under current classifications) rider on a club level and regional level and should be able to compete in support class with little problems. not saying you would win a national but would be a good participant and not kill yourself.

Under the current proposals you would be considered "advanced" which would mean that you are qualified, which you have earned!

I think Ridge has a very good proposal that should be sent up to Dan and the others for rewiew.

I'm not sure that local champs or master's would be totally up to EX level in the nationals, but yet ES seems more apt as the local experts tend to do well in the age groups and such on Sportsman level.

Send It UP!

[dabnabit]

I think Ridge has a very good proposal that should be sent up to Dan and the others for rewiew.

Lets go for it! Number system.

I'll propose to the ATA So.Cal crowd,........all-tho we are the land of fruits and nuts!

[sting32]

I dont recall if Florin-ridgerunner's post was there while I took the afternoon to type mine... you know changing editing and stuff when nobody is looking at breaks and stuff...

I like what he said. I still say someone is gonna have to say it, "make it so" and let the cryin begin... then we can move on to the next, then the next.

We get this done, have it all established before the "Anti-dirtbike & offroad" crowd kills off the public lands for MX & Quad riders, Trials will be the hot ticket and completely have the basics down pat IMHO.

I dare say that 2010, could be the beginning of the boom, I say if we can keep the level we have now from falling anymore that is... acres to ride, are dwindling everywhere. at least our sport seems to be close to zero impact for neighbors, farmers, and cities...

Colorado, cali and many other states are having big time problems having MX parks and the like that I do NOT feel would be so hard to have trials on the same property (that is of course before the neighbors got together to shut everything down in the 1st place).

Trials really could get off the ground, or else "dirt biking" more or less will soon be extinct, I think. I hate the idea of my boy not gettin much chance to take HIS boy (or girl) riding...

[the artist formerly known as ish]

Keep at it Al, I went down to a Sacramento pits club trial this weekend to take some bikes down, I was going to ride the trial, but thought better of it when the temps were in the 100's.

Anyway!! I know NATC diplomats down there, are talking about a system of getting all clubs on the same page, so I think it will be a topic discussed in detail at the next NATC meeting.

I would like to add one more thing to the mix, the picture of the split marker is what our club uses, the idea is to delete the class that doesn't take that split, if names of classes changed to numbers or a blank delta arrow, and only the number was written on the card of classes to take that split, sure would make it simple for the trials marshal, to add splits to a section.

I must say the Sacto pits split cards suck!! they are the most confusing I have ever ridden, yes! I understand if I rode more Sacto events I would soon get the hang of it, but the truth is they are confusing.

If the top class, or hardest route in a club trial is number 1, and the easiest route is the highest number depending on how many classes a club runs, I think would be the easiest for any rider to understand all across the country.

Edited June 27, 2006 by ishy