seandellear Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 I'm a year older now than the last time I finished it and if everything else remained constant then it should seem harder as I'm pretty close to 40 now. However the problem the Club faces is that everything is not constant, trials are getting harder at the top level but remaining pretty much unchanged if not getting easier at every other level. Look at some of the novogar rounds this year, ie the Victory for example I lost 45 marks in a national trial, I've lost more in NE centre trials, look at the sections in your local centre on the middle and easy courses.The gulf between the top boys and the clubman is therefore getting bigger all the time. The trial wasnt far wrong in terms of severity and was brilliant otherwise. I was thinking of this thread earlier and then read this post! Has anyone thought that its other trials getting eased in severity that makes the Scottish seam more difficult? Just a thought that passed through my mind while reading the above post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 I'm a year older now than the last time I finished it and if everything else remained constant then it should seem harder as I'm pretty close to 40 now. However the problem the Club faces is that everything is not constant, trials are getting harder at the top level but remaining pretty much unchanged if not getting easier at every other level. Look at some of the novogar rounds this year, ie the Victory for example I lost 45 marks in a national trial, I've lost more in NE centre trials, look at the sections in your local centre on the middle and easy courses.The gulf between the top boys and the clubman is therefore getting bigger all the time. The trial wasnt far wrong in terms of severity and was brilliant otherwise. I was thinking of this thread earlier and then read this post! Has anyone thought that its other trials getting eased in severity that makes the Scottish seam more difficult? Just a thought that passed through my mind while reading the above post! I tended to mark out sections on the hard side for our centre but people complained so I had to tone them down. It seems they just wanted to ride round on a low score and feel good about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ishy Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 In 97 the top three ended the week on a total of 55, this year the top three ended the week on a total of 91. It was a very good course this year, and I finished the week 35 points over what I did in 97, getting the amount of sections just right for all riders is next to impossible, but this year it had a few more sections a little too tough, for a lot of the entry. This must of been the feedback the clerk of the course got, as he posted a poll on the very subject, now they can go back and use that feedback to ease off a few next year, or make it harder if the objective is sort out some of the old chaff. I have no complaint's about this years event, we all had the same course to ride, and in the end the results are true and fair for every rider, I would of thought the main objective is to fill the entries, find a winner, and keep the event! the number one trial in the world, I can't recall ever seeing a post saying the sections or event were too easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted May 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 When I ran the results for the event, at the end of the week a report was produced giving section by section statistics. Number of riders that passed through each section and the average score for that section. That was available 16 years ago so is surely available now. By using that kind of statistical report and comparing it to previous years it should be relatively easy to determine which sections have got harder/easier. Of course no computer-produced report will ever take into account the unpredictability of the Lochaber weather, but it should provide some guidance to the organisers as to which sections they need to look at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highland lassie Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 When I ran the results for the event, at the end of the week a report was produced giving section by section statistics. Number of riders that passed through each section and the average score for that section. That was available 16 years ago so is surely available now. By using that kind of statistical report and comparing it to previous years it should be relatively easy to determine which sections have got harder/easier. Of course no computer-produced report will ever take into account the unpredictability of the Lochaber weather, but it should provide some guidance to the organisers as to which sections they need to look at. Bog off! I've got enough to be doing without all that nonsense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timp Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 (edited) Funny thing this year. I found a lot of groups easier than previous years. eg Pipers burn, Forest gate, Ben Nevis to name a few. But I also found many sections that were harder. eg top one at Creag Lundie, Lagnaha due to weather, 1st one at Leanachan on Friday etc. Luckily the moors were easier than they can be or retirements could of been high. I think the balance of sections wasn't far wrong, just a couple of the hard sections eased per day would of made a big difference. As regards getting rid of the older riders I'm not sure if that is the way forward for the trial. It wasn't just old ones who said this year was a bit too hard. Good young riders I know thought it was a bit harder than needed. If it is to be aimed at the younger end will they press for the rules thet suit them ie. stop and hop which would ruin the trial. Would the factory trucks still turn up if the older factory riders were not there to support. A lot of them are not top riders but work at the factories, mechanics, dealers etc or even run the factory. If a lot of older riders pull out who is to replace them. I know quite a few riders who enter but didn't get through the ballot. I doubt if they would ride Scotland regularly if they did get in. I think they would find it too hard. Some find Nationals like the Jack Wood very hard. The Jack Wood is nothing like a day in Scotland!!! A lot of the older riders can do the Scottish every year without financial constraints. I doubt many of the younger ones wives and families would want to see so much money going out every year when mortgages, holidays, children, cars etc are the priority. I'm not saying the same riders should get in for ever but age should not be a reason for getting rid of them. The riders who should not be given an entry are the joyriders. Some near me (between numbers 50 to 100) did not look at the sections but rode in and paddled as far as they could, got stuck for a minute then struggled on to the next section and repeated the process all day!!!!!!!!! I can understand not looking if you are late and looking at the section will cost you more in time penalties than its worth but these did it from section 1 all day. Also another set of riders who should not get a ride in future are those who didn't thank the observers on Saturday. I went to every observer whilst walking the sections and thanked them without exception. A lot didn't. Without the observers there won't be a trial for anyone! Overall the trial is very near spot on as it is so I say leave it to the club to run the trial. Edited May 17, 2007 by Timp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthehill Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 It is difficult to appreciate the severity of the moors which everyone goes on about - having ridden scottish moors for 30 years you get to know them pretty well - the moors are a huge part of the ssdt and seem to take a lot out of people, making the sections harder. The moor crossings are one thing that will not change so long as i have anything to do with the trial, however it may be that we consider a wider mix of sections. It always was the policy to make the spectator sections harder and leaving the out of the way sections more straightforward. There were some exceptions this year - probably the hardest section of the week was on saturday at Allt Na Lairige - they were mega sections. I first rode in 1983 which was a real test of endurance (ask Gizza5)- the winner was the only one under 100 ! - we do not want to go back to these days. however 24 years later, the only section i remember riding was one hard one (wern't they all) on the Ben which i got through for a dab and got a round of applause. We may tweak the sections in future but be assured the Scottish will always be a challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boydw Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 I have read most of the posts on this topic, and i think that the SSDT is a cracking event. Fair enough i can ride reasonably well, and have taken the last 6 SSDT's in my stride, i'm knackered after day one, but i love the event and entries permiting (and health) i would like to compete until i can't. The SSDT isn't just about the sections, its about the build up, competing, weighing your bike in, the crack with the lads and (lasses now), a few beers at night, and some in the afternoon if your lucky! its a holiday in the highlands. So the man who has finished last deserves the entry just as much as the man who wins, he has paid his money and taken his chance - thats the beauty of the event. On the flip side, we can all enter a world round, last year at hawkestone there were WTC points available in the top class, so any one could have tipped up, 5'd every section, but still scored WTC points, ask Ben Hemmo or Wayne Braybrook etc, what they would give to have scored points in all the years they tried. I rode round this year with two friends, who both have never competed or been up to the event. Both got an entry initially, One trained, got his bike ready, rode in many trials to get bike fit, bought loads of new gear. Came to Scotland ready to ride One backed out after much messing around (sorry HL). But came to watch on the Saturday before, after many Beers and much pi55 taking about him been a mincer/waster/gay etc etc, he uttered the imortal words " sort me a bike, sort me an entry, and i'll shut you up" cut a long story short (HL can verify all of this) come Sunday night he was weighed in, paid up, had some riding gear, and was ready of a sort! he came with just enough clothes for two days, never mind riding gear, boots, helmets, waterproofs, bike or any training etc!!!!!!!!! Both of these lads rode there hearts out all week, they finished in the 2nd class awards and had some excellent clean rides all week (one memorable, at the bottom hazard at Trotters). They both rode and competed well, at times asking me "why have you brought me here" "what is this all about" "never again" but come Saturday afternoon, we all shook hands and they both vowed they would return! No doubt its a hard event, but isn't that what its all about! Any way - thats my two penneth worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 I have read most of the posts on this topic, and i think that the SSDT is a cracking event. Fair enough i can ride reasonably well, and have taken the last 6 SSDT's in my stride, i'm knackered after day one, but i love the event and entries permiting (and health) i would like to compete until i can't. The SSDT isn't just about the sections, its about the build up, competing, weighing your bike in, the crack with the lads and (lasses now), a few beers at night, and some in the afternoon if your lucky! its a holiday in the highlands. So the man who has finished last deserves the entry just as much as the man who wins, he has paid his money and taken his chance - thats the beauty of the event. On the flip side, we can all enter a world round, last year at hawkestone there were WTC points available in the top class, so any one could have tipped up, 5'd every section, but still scored WTC points, ask Ben Hemmo or Wayne Braybrook etc, what they would give to have scored points in all the years they tried. I rode round this year with two friends, who both have never competed or been up to the event. Both got an entry initially, One trained, got his bike ready, rode in many trials to get bike fit, bought loads of new gear. Came to Scotland ready to ride One backed out after much messing around (sorry HL). But came to watch on the Saturday before, after many Beers and much pi55 taking about him been a mincer/waster/gay etc etc, he uttered the imortal words " sort me a bike, sort me an entry, and i'll shut you up" cut a long story short (HL can verify all of this) come Sunday night he was weighed in, paid up, had some riding gear, and was ready of a sort! he came with just enough clothes for two days, never mind riding gear, boots, helmets, waterproofs, bike or any training etc!!!!!!!!! Both of these lads rode there hearts out all week, they finished in the 2nd class awards and had some excellent clean rides all week (one memorable, at the bottom hazard at Trotters). They both rode and competed well, at times asking me "why have you brought me here" "what is this all about" "never again" but come Saturday afternoon, we all shook hands and they both vowed they would return! No doubt its a hard event, but isn't that what its all about! Any way - thats my two penneth worth. Good read Boydw - You can often get too immersed in the positions and awards etc and not take into account the camaraderie and sheer atmosphere of an event of this nature. You have even inspired me to have a bash at it next year.( If I get a place that is) My aim would be to finish about 2nd... 2nd from last that is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizza5 Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 I first rode in 1983 which was a real test of endurance (ask Gizza5)- the winner was the only one under 100 ! - we do not want to go back to these days. however 24 years later, the only section i remember riding was one hard one (wern't they all) on the Ben which i got through for a dab and got a round of applause. I rode for the Army Team that year and boy I thought I was fit having just come out of Basic Training only to be unleashed on a Fantic 200 on those Scottish Moors I could hardly walk come Tuesday morning...........your right Mark going back there would kill the trial The works trucks were all there too, difference being that they were only looking after there works riders many of which were capable of lifting the main trophy, clubby had to be catered for by Family, Friends, their Local Club, or Roy Carey's ''Fantic and Friends''!!! Now the works trucks are still there, but very few works riders and they are looking after the Clubby..........very similar to how the trial has been groomed over the years to cater more for the clubby!!! In a previous post I wondered how many people from the starting list were capable of winning this years trial 3, 4 maybe 5 riders, very different from years ago. To get a winner from these handful of riders through section severity and cater for the majority cannot be easy, but ''Mark and his Merry Men'' seem to have done it. Yes it might have been on the tough side this year, but it would be one hell of a problem if 3 riders were all clean come Friday night............ London Marathon few could win, but the entry is full and oversubscribed with Young and Old!!!, just for the sense of achievement of running in the top event in the world, very similar to the SSDT top International event for a trials rider and many have mentioned it whether you are a potential winner or a clubby you deserve to be there The SSDT in its present format will remain oversubscribed and it should remain a challenge. One final point that TIMP made stop kicking the ''old guys'' I have seen the young guns come and dissapear from the SSDT, they may come back when they are more financially stable when they get over 40!!!! I am sure I beat somone younger than me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eiger Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 The first time I rode was 1985, I remember the likes of Berlatier, Cordonnier and the Michaud brothers in the sunshine on weigh-in day, it was like a carnival atmosphere, a fantastic event where I would be riding the same course and sections as the best in the world. I finished the week battered and bruised about tenth from last place with a huge score. But as we drove home I couldn't wait to return the following year. I have ridden and finished fifteen times in total, the trial got tougher towards the early nineties and entries dropped but I persevered, in pain but I had the bug and it was part of my life and that of my family too. As Boydw says its not just about the riding but also about the cameraderie, meeting up with old mates whether riders, or observers, or in later years, the Army crew members who helped refuel, having a few beers (someone borrowing a rowing boat at 2 am for a quick lap of Loch Linhe knowing they would be up in a few hours as its their early day!!) Work commitments meant I had to miss the odd year and the last time I rode was 2003 where I had to nurse a Beta 200 round for 4 days nipping it on the way back from Laggan on the Tuesday. My son went to watch this year, he's 17 and wants to enter next year, I'd like to enter and ride with him too, maybe for my last time, but I'd want to ride the same route as everyone else, otherwise the trial would lose its status. Its got to be a tough event, I accept there has to be a balance but if it goes to one route for the top riders (even if its just a couple of sections) and another route for the rest, then it will no longer be the greatest trial in the world, and that would be a very sad day. The older you get the more you feel pain!! I certainly do not bounce as well as I did twenty years ago but I'll still manage the odd decent ride (who am I kidding!!) and its an excuse to talk about it for eleven months, but not for my sake, its just helping my son keep an interest to keep him on the straight and narrow!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilco Posted May 19, 2007 Report Share Posted May 19, 2007 In many way's this topic has become very inspirational let's hope it encourage's more people to get to the gym and do more practice with there bike's,hopefully that will make club trial's as a whole alot more competitive again. If you ask someone who has just started out in trial's why there doing it in most cases they would say because it's the safest form of m/cycle sport's,should'nt they be looking more toward's the thinking of im in trial's because i want to kick a$$ and become an expert. well in my view it's to easy to move up class in club trial's without being good enough for it anyway and that's where all the moan's are coming from anyway. so what's stopping a beginner from entering the scottish 6 month's down the line of starting out in trial's and getting an entry.Although it's a clubby's trial it still has to uphold a standard does it not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted May 19, 2007 Report Share Posted May 19, 2007 If you ask someone who has just started out in trial's why there doing it in most cases they would say because it's the safest form of m/cycle sport's,should'nt they be looking more toward's the thinking of im in trial's because i want to kick a$$ and become an expert. Valid point and one that I thought would be the case but I have found that for some its like that, but for many its not. Being involved with a club with a high youth element, I have seen the Dads and kids riding round and thoroughly enjoying it but only if its not too hard. Too hard and it gets the kids upset, puts them off and thats it, the damage is done. There are the exceptions when kids push themselves and then Dad has to leave the bike at home and become the minder! There are guys who live to ride the SSDT and there are guys who would never want to ride it but still turn up to a club trial for an 'easy' ride out in the country and enjoy it. Modern trials has something for everybody and you have to admire it for that P.S. I suggest anyone who is serious about getting fit for trials gets a trials bike like an Onza or Monty and practice skillz AND get fitter.... can't beat it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gouger Posted May 19, 2007 Report Share Posted May 19, 2007 The riders who should not be given an entry are the joyriders. Some near me (between numbers 50 to 100) did not look at the sections but rode in and paddled as far as they could, got stuck for a minute then struggled on to the next section and repeated the process all day!!!!!!!!! Timp, As one of the riders that you are clearly referring to , I am content for you to question whether riders of my ability / fitness level should warrant an entry. However, I do take offence at being called a joyrider. Having broken the middle finger on my left hand on the second section of day one, I looked at, and made a serious attempt at every other section that day until I flooded my bike on the third from last, which resulted in 28 time penalties. For the rest of the week I struggled with tendonitis in my right wrist (yes, maybe I could have been more 'bike fit', but work commitments meant I wasn't). The other rider in our group and I agreed to ride the rest of the week together, our aim being to finish. As we were slow over the moors, we found we simply didn't have time to look at many of the sections. We also asked for fives on some of the more severe ones (none of Hughesy's sections, I hasten to add), partially to avoid holding up the better riders on sections we obviously wouldn't get through. Asking for a five is a humiliating experience, and I have the very greatest respect for those who didn't ask for one all week. It is fair to say that we really struggled, but we both finished (I drew with Kinell). Personally, I had to weigh up whether I wanted to finish the event or retire. Had it not been for some serious support from Bigfoot, AGM and others in the bar each night (and a bucketful of anti-inflammatories and painkillers), I certainly would not have finished. I would like to add that the organisation for the whole week was fantastic (including the brilliant work done by Andy and helpers at Trials Central). The opportunity to ride in such a high-level competition was fantastic. As it was my first ride, I'm not qualified to comment on the severity of the course. Suffice to say I really struggled, but felt I had earned my finishers medal whether I managed to look at all of the sections or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyl Posted May 19, 2007 Report Share Posted May 19, 2007 There are some things left in the trials world that should not be tampered with, the SSDT and the SCOTT, so long as they are ride able and remain true to their origins they should always be supported. ( the past modifications to the SSDT rules are a perfect exemple of this) If you have ridden neither then you will not understand, if you have you will! I thought I had had enough of the SSDT after 1994, 5th time finish. Broke my little finger after 1st group on day 1 and was disappointed to only get 2nd class award at the finish. However My older brother having come back to trials decided he had 1 more SSDT (5 was not enough) in him, took several years to get an entry but in 2006 we rode again. This time being able to ride together for the first time (excellent rule change) both over 40, and to echo Boydw comments the SSDT is more than just a trial. In the 1980's as a young Yorkie the SSDT is what you did in May, I am sure it is the case now and May was a family thing for 3 or 4 years on the trot until work etc seemed to lessen the focus. Now to have gone back in 2006 and missed now 2007 I remember all that the SSDT is about. Sitting last year on the Saturday evening looking over the loch after both completing the trial drinking a pint in remembrance of our old man who had suported us so well on our trips to Fort William in the 80's reminded us this was more than a trial, this is history!! Long may it carry on and impress its memory on the minds of every body who rides it. It is unique and I feel honoured to have been a part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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