Are The 4ts Dead?

[motovita]

What's needed is a bike that falls somewhere between the Scorpa SY200 (or whatever it is) and the current 'big bikes'. Aircooled, uncomplicated 250 motor with gentle power delivery in a modern chassis would be perfect for most clubmen or novice riders. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be fashionable so it would never sell...

I'd buy one!

[ham2]

thort you went to school ?

Man,that's cold..

[dgraf]

I really don't think "we"(all trials riders) can be held for responsible for excessive emissions 2 or 4 stroke..........I mean honestly

we ride a few hours on Saturdays or Sundays....most lawn cutting services run there weed wackers for about 8 hrs a day five to six days a week.(AND ALL OF THEM RUN RICH! 16 TO 20:1 you can have my two stroke........AFTER YOU PRY MY DEAD COLD HANDS FROM IT. TWO STROKE OR DIE!

[ham2]

I really don't think "we"(all trials riders) can be held for responsible for excessive emissions 2 or 4 stroke..........I mean honestly

we ride a few hours on Saturdays or Sundays....most lawn cutting services run there weed wackers for about 8 hrs a day five to six days a week.(AND ALL OF THEM RUN RICH! 16 TO 20:1 you can have my two stroke........AFTER YOU PRY MY DEAD COLD HANDS FROM IT. TWO STROKE OR DIE!

Anyone who's riding their trials bike in the UK at the moment will have dead-cold hands !

You're right though, I do think the 2 stroke trials bike industry should be exempt from emissions regulation on the grounds that they're an infrequently used toy,sold in small numbers.

If the slump in trials bike sales continues, this may be the way to go:

They could be exempt from a raft of legislation if they were sold in kit form like some cars are.It would take far less spanner-time to assemble a Gasser/Sherco/Beta ..than say ....a Caterham7?

[nzralphy]

I hope 4Ts will be around for a while yet. My Beta has plenty of go and is lovely and quiet. There is no reason for other brands to make their bikes quiet.

Emissions on a 2T will always be s**t.

EFI on a 2T doesn't work very well.... It was tried on Moto GP bikes by Honda etal and failed. They all went back to carbs. How can a small manufacturer (OSSA) make it work. (Sorry - orbital in austraila with direct injection managed it)

[toofasttim]

Ralph,

I'm not anti-four stroke. Just anti the draconian and ill-considered legislation dumped on us by the FIM. DGraf, you're right recreational 2Ts are a tiny fraction of the market and won't make a gnats pubic of a difference to global emissions. That's the whole point, the FIM over-reacted and dumped us with the costs. If they'd thought it through the would have told the tree huggers to play with themselves.

[feetupfun]

I hope 4Ts will be around for a while yet. My Beta has plenty of go and is lovely and quiet. There is no reason for other brands to make their bikes quiet.

Emissions on a 2T will always be s**t.

EFI on a 2T doesn't work very well.... It was tried on Moto GP bikes by Honda etal and failed. They all went back to carbs. How can a small manufacturer (OSSA) make it work. (Sorry - orbital in austraila with direct injection managed it)

I believe that fuel-injected (Japanese and US brands) two stroke outboard motors are quite popular

[motofire]

This is a fantastic read. A bit long but worth it.

http://www.dirt-bike-tips-and-pics.com/fut...wo-strokes.html

[ham2]

This is a fantastic read. A bit long but worth it.

http://www.dirt-bike-tips-and-pics.com/fut...wo-strokes.html

Good find,good read Cheers.

[for artie]

Caby has gone back to the 2T, Mont are looking a bit ragged in the sales dept and Gasser seem to have halted development of their 4T. Have the 4T's died a death? Have the FIM given up trying to dictate to us? Discuss.

Tim, I know you are not anti 4T.

What does bother me is the 4T haters. You don't see any 2T haters. Reminds me of the stupid argument, mountain bikers vs road bikers. Dumbest thing I ever heard. We are all trials riders.

FIM never made a rule banning 2Ts. It was the Euro emmissions laws. Somehow the 2Ts have managed to get by those laws...for now. Maybe thats a good thing so that we can have low co$t 2Ts for now in this economy.

Why didn't the factories work on making the 2Ts run clean? Why did it take a newcomer like Ossa to show them the way with a FI 2T?

Caby is on the 2T for marketing reasons, new model and all. GasGas will never make their 4T, bad design, Mont have just bungled their marketing in a big way. Beta seems to be the only one that know how to sell a 4T.

[b40rt]

This is a fantastic read. A bit long but worth it.

http://www.dirt-bike-tips-and-pics.com/fut...wo-strokes.html

Agreed, a very interesting read.

[baldilocks]

Tim, I know you are not anti 4T.

What does bother me is the 4T haters. You don't see any 2T haters. Reminds me of the stupid argument, mountain bikers vs road bikers. Dumbest thing I ever heard. We are all trials riders.

FIM never made a rule banning 2Ts. It was the Euro emmissions laws. Somehow the 2Ts have managed to get by those laws...for now. Maybe thats a good thing so that we can have low co$t 2Ts for now in this economy.

Why didn't the factories work on making the 2Ts run clean? Why did it take a newcomer like Ossa to show them the way with a FI 2T?

Caby is on the 2T for marketing reasons, new model and all. GasGas will never make their 4T, bad design, Mont have just bungled their marketing in a big way. Beta seems to be the only one that know how to sell a 4T.

you would be right to think I dislike the 4t trials bike, you would be absolutely wrong to think I dislike anybody who rides one.

I object actually to the con, which was started by Montesa or Honda or the FIM.

people look at Toni Bou and think they need a 4rt.

but the points I have made before still havent been disproved in my view, the bike IS to loud, it IS too expensive and it IS too difficult to ride.

With the exception of Toni s 300,000 euro factory bike tell me somebody you know who has bought a four stroke and rode noticebly better ? I dont know anyone who has, some ride one almost as good as their previous two stroke but many just dont.

We, trials, dont need four strokes. We need lightweight bikes that we can afford, that we can fix ourselves and that improve our riding.

People can of course ride a four stroke if they wish, its their choice, in the same way that some prefer pre 65 or twinshock. But a fourstroke is not a better trials bike and there is little excuse for the excessive noise.

[axulsuv]

This is a fantastic read. A bit long but worth it.

http://www.dirt-bike-tips-and-pics.com/fut...wo-strokes.html

Can we elect this fellow ???? Great read , proves money controls everything .... Bottomline !

[copemech]

"What's needed is a bike that falls somewhere between the Scorpa SY200 (or whatever it is) and the current 'big bikes'. Aircooled, uncomplicated 250 motor with gentle power delivery in a modern chassis would be perfect for most clubmen or novice riders. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be fashionable so it would never sell... "

Personally, I have had this same idea for years! I have nothing against the 4T's in a simple sense. They can be great fun to ride, yet is seems the perfect air cooled simple reliable motor has never been done for trials use. The little Scorpa/Yam in 175 version may be the closest thing that has ever been sold, yet it still seems far from ideal. That bike WILL perform! But requires a real rider to do it!

In a positive sense, a proper carb on a 4T can be done, and the Beta or the Sherco actually run quite well, with little to no hesitation or spitback. Bikes chug along and respond nicely. I do not think Honda ever really achieved that mark, they just went for the FI on the Mont.

Now lets see, If I could just get the 225 aircooled top off the Serow onto the Sherco or Beta bottom end? We might just have a winner!

Drop it in a mono or twinshock frame of choice, with real brakes! The little tractor would take most anyone anywhere they wanted to go, trials or trails.

Caby, Bou and others do not seem to have a problem finding traction on a 4T, although I will admit it is a skill thing, has a lot more to do with the left hand than the right!

The Gasser motor would probably be a working thing in many senses, yet never the world beater they want. What any of that has to do with the rest of us I do not know. Mont as example! They got the world beater, we still get crap! Or nothing at all! Screw them. Some may still like their bikes, yet I have little respect for how they have *******ized the brand through the marketing and price!

[pete_scorpa3]

I nknow it will never happen but trials would be a lot easier to set out if every rider was on a Scorpa 125/175.

The top riders would still be the top riders but you wouldn't need the big tough sections to take marks and get a result. One of the main problems with modern trials is that the bikes are not the limiting factor, it's all down to rider skill and the difference between the best and the rest is huge.

Three or four riders in the world can use 100% of the performance of a modern trials bike, the rest of us are only limited by our ability. It would be really interesting to stage a one make trial using little four strokes with whisper quiet exhausts and see who enjoyed themselves.