No Stop : not working

[purplebeast]

Figured I would chime in with more of a newcomer's impression, for what it's worth, since I bought my first ever trials bike this past Spring, and haven't entered any competitions as of yet. I'm 55....got into dirt bikes late in life (late 40's start), and have taken up trials riding since it looked like a blast and everything I had heard led me to believe it would improve all my riding, both dirt and street (which it already has!). I live on 10 acres in the country and have been building out a small obstacle course to practice both trials and dirt riding. Most recently, two weeks ago I went to a weekend course at the Trials Training Center in Tennessee, which was great fun and learned a lot (I'll be going back for sure in 2012).

Watching someone like Toni Bou (I now have quite a few trials DVDs, both of world events and instructional ones) is very exciting and quite inspiring, though I don't ever expect I'll come close to being able to master that level of riding, given my age and late start. But I still enjoy seeing what is possible at the pinnacle of the sport, and look forward to seeing how much more the top-class riders can push the envelope. Toni's "no engine" YouTube clip is mind boggling.

I also like to see the smooth, effortless riders in sections and aspire more to that, since becoming a smoother, more flowing rider (both trails and trials), where you expend less energy, is a more realistic goal for me to strive for. Finesse is definitely something to admire.

So I see the arguments for both sides of the No-Stop debate quite clearly.

As a relative newcomer, I do see that stopping, hopping, etc. is part of what defines Trials riding as compared to any other form of offroad motorcycle competition. No other two-wheeled sport demonstrates or needs stopping/hopping, and in fact that would cost you time, barring the Extreme Enduro sections where it's more of a speed-trials approach (the rock garden at Erzberg comes to mind). I would hate to see the stops, hops and big obstacles disappear from the sport, since that is something unique about trials, and as others have noted, does attract the attention of non-riders. Spectator appeal is not the be-all/end-all, but can be very valuable to the long term viability of a sport, in attracting new members and funding the top echelon of competitors and manufacturers/sponsors.

Much has been said of "perceptions". It's worth remembering, that when it comes to human nature, "perception is reality". So perceptions have to be dealt with, across competitors, observers, organizers, spectators, manufacturers, sponsors, old vs young, new versus experienced, etc. The trick is balancing the perceptions across different constituencies who quite obviously will have different motivations, desires and perceptions. Quite the balancing act....but then, isn't trials fundamentally about balance?

When the time comes for me to enter a trials competition, it won't much matter whether the rules are no-stop or stop to me....I doubt I'll have the stop/hop skills for it to make any difference to my riding, though I will be working on developing those skills just because I think it's a challenge and I want to improve. Though if the rules are "stop allowed" I hope I don't run into the riders that show off and waste everyone's time.....that doesn't sound like fun. Maybe it's time for spectators (including queued up competitors) to have special "observer" cards that they can flash when folks like that slow the process down. Ones that say "Asshat" or some such on 'em, which can be flipped up prominently as required?

Maybe it's a simple as having competitors declare which rules they want to ride under....stop or no-stop, and then you give them different coloured/marked number jerseys or stickers or some such to differentiate them. With a time limit on those that select stop rules?

Anyway....for what it's worth, I don't have any answers, but figured I would chime in with some observations on the debate just to muddy the waters!

Balance folks....balance!

[andat]

Results from Hillsborough's Yorkshire Centre Trial last Sunday, observed no stop...and very strictly on my section:1st Richard Timperley - 6 (National Expert B runner up), 2nd Jack Cholloner - 7 (WTC Ace, Euro Champ etc etc and the next "Big Thing" in UK Trials), 3rd Ross Crosby - 8 (Yorkshire Center ace hasn't really pulled any trees up but a good handy expert), 4th Chris Pearson - 10(Multi Novagar champ), 5th Dan Thorpe -11 (100+ National wins and THE NO-STOP exponent) and behind these Messrs Crosswaite (15), Disney (17)and Hemmingway B (17). I think that NO-STOP worked very well on this occasion: Let the arguments commence....

[woody]

Results from Hillsborough's Yorkshire Centre Trial last Sunday, observed no stop...and very strictly on my section:1st Richard Timperley - 6 (National Expert B runner up), 2nd Jack Cholloner - 7 (WTC Ace, Euro Champ etc etc and the next "Big Thing" in UK Trials), 3rd Ross Crosby - 8 (Yorkshire Center ace hasn't really pulled any trees up but a good handy expert), 4th Chris Pearson - 10(Multi Novagar champ), 5th Dan Thorpe -11 (100+ National wins and THE NO-STOP exponent) and behind these Messrs Crosswaite (15), Disney (17)and Hemmingway B (17). I think that NO-STOP worked very well on this occasion: Let the arguments commence....

Just out of interest, can you have an educated guess at what those scores would have been like if they had been able to stop and hop on the same sections.

[andat]

Just out of interest, can you have an educated guess at what those scores would have been like if they had been able to stop and hop on the same sections.

Couldn't really help you with that one Woody, but Timps had a dab on mine when all the aforementioned (excepy Hemmo) went clean. Hopping and bopping wouldn't have made any difference on my section cos there weren't any tight turns just a tricky climb up a steep rocky gully followed by a steep drop back into a river and a few ins and outs and ups and downs.

[pete_scorpa3]

Couldn't really help you with that one Woody, but Timps had a dab on mine when all the aforementioned (excepy Hemmo) went clean. Hopping and bopping wouldn't have made any difference on my section cos there weren't any tight turns just a tricky climb up a steep rocky gully followed by a steep drop back into a river and a few ins and outs and ups and downs.

I was watching the CJB Trials Review for 2011 last night and tried to look at it from an impartial 'trials outsiders' perspective.

Whilst the TSR22a stop allowed sections were very impressive (big steps from impossible angles) it did start to become very 'samey' with the sections just a series of 'pre-set' pieces. Lots of hopping into place and then pauses whilst the riders eyed up the climb, adjusted their helmets and moved an inch to the side.

In contrast, the TSR22b non stop events were all less impressive but easier to watch, the riders just kept moving, meaning there was action all the time.

At least I could imagine having a go at those (even if I would fail in reality!) I have to say that I prefer to watch non stop.

[telecat]

Couldn't really help you with that one Woody, but Timps had a dab on mine when all the aforementioned (excepy Hemmo) went clean. Hopping and bopping wouldn't have made any difference on my section cos there weren't any tight turns just a tricky climb up a steep rocky gully followed by a steep drop back into a river and a few ins and outs and ups and downs.

I was watching the sections following my lad around. We don't normally do no-stop but he's been ill and wanted to ride. I don't think it would be fair to judge the rules one way or another on this Trial. It was pretty snowy on the ground and roads. The Ground conditions varied from Frozen to muddy and slippy. The sections running away from the Start area caught a few riders. The conditions changed as the sun moved round. this also affected the sections 7 to 9 across the private road whereas 10 to 20 were sheltered under the trees so slippy mud and streams ruled. I witnessed one poor lad do a complete 360 on the road between 9 and 10. Would have made a great "Framed" clip. If that had been 10 mins earlier he would have been fine. I also thought that the sections were not bad for a no-stop with the odd exception where a flag was a little "tight" on a turn after full blown blasts up a vertical bank. Dan Thorpe got section 2 all wrong on the first lap and failed to make the climb and I think that was because the better riders hung back a bit and a "bad" line got cut in. Crosser was also the victim of some dodgy marking where the observer marked clean then changed her mind after a Spectator intervened. I have always been of the opinion that if you marked it you keep it unless the CofC intervenes. You have to rely on your own view. Overall it was a bit "easy" for the good lads. A dodgy rock or hole in one place costing you the Trial as there was nowhere to make those marks up. For the Centre Hard course riders it was a good trial with just enough to challenge them. For my lad it was a good workout after a couple of months of not being able to get to the end of a Trial. The fact that Yeadon Guiseley and Bradford were slugging it out for the Centre Championship gave it some bite as well. On that front for those of us that do the Club Standings could we have a Version of the results with the Clubs on??

[dabtastic]

The fact that Yeadon Guiseley and Bradford were slugging it out for the Centre Championship gave it some bite as well. On that front for those of us that do the Club Standings could we have a Version of the results with the Clubs on??

The Yorkshire centre championship is to find out the best rider in the centre, not the best club, you have a team trial for that. I dont understand why you are obsessed with one club being better than the other anyway?

[telecat]

The Yorkshire centre championship is to find out the best rider in the centre, not the best club, you have a team trial for that. I dont understand why you are obsessed with one club being better than the other anyway?

There is a competition within the Centre Championship for the clubs as well, I'm surprised you aren't aware of it. It's not My obsession to be honest but the riders at the clubs do take it seriously.

The standings are Here. It hadn't been updated prior to this posting though.

[rabbitracing]

I have to say, I can see more disadvantages to non stop, than stop allowed, my 14yr old son got intrested in Trials two years ago, he has got better and better and was going to do a championship this coming year but has lost interest now, as he said " I spent a long time learning good balance, now if I pause to change into second for the hill out of a section or something, after cleaning everything up to that point, I may well get a five, someone just walks the bike through, thats a three! I thought Trials was a test of balance and control, not moto cross?"

I have been told the change was to get more riders into the British championships, well as I understand it most of the top riders wont ride this year they are going to the worlds where stop is still allowed, I have also been told that the youth series will still be stop allowed, if so, what a mess, do a club championship then do the youth series, rule change, move to the adult, rule change, move to the world, rule change! its not really helping is it?

Vince really enjoyed the Trials up to now ( Im not so keen, how can you people put up with the build quality and the importers/dealers attitude, as a road racer, words fail me) but now I think the bikes for sale and we are pulling out of buying a share in a Wood, it is a shame as I think its great for the youngsters to get off the PS3 and out in the freash air but it is very disheartening for them when one slight pause is the end of that section, if you really want to punish a stop maybe a one would be more sense, at least there is some point in trying to finish the section and not just being told get out of the section, you have failed.

[pete_scorpa3]

.... what a mess, do a club championship then do the youth series, rule change, move to the adult, rule change, move to the world, rule change! its not really helping is it?

I have to fully agree with you on that comment, three different sets of rules for one sport is a mess.

One set of rules for all would be best and I believe is what we should all be pushing for, the problem (and it is a VERY big one) is that no one can agree which set of rules we should be using.

Rabbitracing, which rules would you like to see?

Start at the top; The ACU seem to have little ability to effect the FIM, so if it's one set of rules for all then we have to let the FIM decide what they are. Time keepers etc etc?

BTC; The ACU is trying to increase numbers in the UK's top class and this is why the BTC has moved to non stop. No one knows if it will make any difference and the subject has been discussed (at great lengths) elsewhere.

Youth Championship; Good entries, successful trials, lots of happy youngsters. This is a series that doesn't need 'fixing' so it's logical to leave it exactly as it is for now.

S3 (formerly Clubmans/Novogar) Championship; Already non stop and most would argue it's better for it. From my involvement with this series over the past 20 years, I would agree non stop is working well here.

Normandale Classic / Sammy Miller series; Has always been non stop and both enjoy large entries.

Scottish / Manx 2 day; Non stop for some time and enjoying big entries.

Centre / Club trials; Now it's here that we have the most confusion and the biggest problem for the ACU. Dedicated, (speaking for myself- stuck in my ways) hard working, unpaid volunteers who run the dozens of small events each week with a set of rules they like.

Should the ACU force us to use one rule or the other?

Yes. I guess they should. But going back to my question above, which rule should we be forced to use?

So with all this in mind, is it really so bad that for 2012 we have two sets of rules in the UK? Clubs / Centres can choose. Youth stays the same. Nationals stay the same (or can change if they wish) the BTC changes.

It's most regretable that some riders are being put off by the current situation but the BIG debate will come at the end of 2012, Non stop may become universally adopted... it may not!

[gizza5]

" I spent a long time learning good balance, now if I pause to change into second for the hill out of a section or something, after cleaning everything up to that point, I may well get a five, someone just walks the bike through, thats a three! I thought Trials was a test of balance and control, not moto cross?"

So no one adjusted from No stop to Stop and Hop, yes we all did so now surely it is another learning curve?

If your lad wants to ride under the stop rule I am sure some clubs are still using theses rules?

You could say its going backwards....................but that would be a 5

[old trials fanatic]

I have to say, I can see more disadvantages to non stop, than stop allowed, my 14yr old son got intrested in Trials two years ago, he has got better and better and was going to do a championship this coming year but has lost interest now, as he said " I spent a long time learning good balance, now if I pause to change into second for the hill out of a section or something, after cleaning everything up to that point, I may well get a five, someone just walks the bike through, thats a three! I thought Trials was a test of balance and control, not moto cross?"

I have been told the change was to get more riders into the British championships, well as I understand it most of the top riders wont ride this year they are going to the worlds where stop is still allowed, I have also been told that the youth series will still be stop allowed, if so, what a mess, do a club championship then do the youth series, rule change, move to the adult, rule change, move to the world, rule change! its not really helping is it?

Vince really enjoyed the Trials up to now ( Im not so keen, how can you people put up with the build quality and the importers/dealers attitude, as a road racer, words fail me) but now I think the bikes for sale and we are pulling out of buying a share in a Wood, it is a shame as I think its great for the youngsters to get off the PS3 and out in the freash air but it is very disheartening for them when one slight pause is the end of that section, if you really want to punish a stop maybe a one would be more sense, at least there is some point in trying to finish the section and not just being told get out of the section, you have failed.

So one small rule change that will only affect a very small ammount of people and you spit the dummy?

If they put an extra chicane in at your favourite track would you also pack in racing? of course in racing they never ever change any rule do they???

Sounds like a temper tantrum to me.

As a matter of interest did you attend the ACU Trials seminar and put your point forward?

Why not start a club, you can you know! , that will run trials to a rule book vince approves of? Nothing stopping you and you will get loads of advice and of course support from local riders

[pete_scorpa3]

So no one adjusted from No stop to Stop and Hop, yes we all did so now surely it is another learning curve?

If your lad wants to ride under the stop rule I am sure some clubs are still using theses rules?

You could say its going backwards....................but that would be a 5

I am planning to keep our club trials stop allowed TSR22a for 2012 and see how things go nationally.

I must say that I am hoping (not hopping) that the ACU will make all trials non stop for 2013 and we can put all this behind us.

Pete

[old trials fanatic]

I am planning to keep our club trials stop allowed TSR22a for 2012 and see how things go nationally.

I must say that I am hoping (not hopping) that the ACU will make all trials non stop for 2013 and we can put all this behind us.

Pete

Personally i agree with you Pete but think we will need a big skip for all the dummys that will be spit.

[rabbitracing]

Pete Scorpa 3

You ask what rule would I like to see, well certainly for the youths, stop allowed, we have a fair bit to do with the Kent Youth Trials Club and I think most kids will stop riding Trials if, when they just get started in Trials they 5 everything if as soon as they sump out as they go over a log, get a bit lost put a foot down, wait for Mum or Dad to catch up (with the very small ones we tend to run in front, not really allowed now, no minders) they will just get fed up and that will be that.

The six day, the scot etc yes ok, non stop if they wish, not many youths ride in that do they? (I dont really know, as I say we were very new to Trials) but if we push the young people away from the game then it will die even faster, as I said before, if you really want to punish a stop, then a one is what I suggest, if you can then carry on and clean the rest of the section, all is not lost, it is still a test of skill then. I really think the non stop rule is a bad idea. even if the top lads do a few British rounds whats going to happen people get to a section to see the best, and they stop, they then go out of the section and no one see them ride or the first 3 or 4 clean the trial because it has been eased for the new rule and it has to be sorted out by some sort of count back! if a one was the loss then you would still want to keep going, so if the top class was non stop you would still be training for that set of rules.