nigel dabster Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 heaven forbid.. can you believe it cleaning all bar one section is asking too much of potential british trials champions! i once rode a trail clean till the last section and dabbed at the start.. did i balme the organisers for making it too easy.. no i squarely blamed myself. self discpline and concentration is as much a factor in trials as balance. that folk are asking for more hard sections so they can make up the slack marks they drop is madness that trials are now more directly related to keeping the bike moving forward may actually improve bike control balance and hone concentration. any bets who' d win a wtc based on the same rules as btc.. of course not rocket science is it. the best riders always win, the poorer riders just have the best excuses. Very much disagree. Its six events the rules should match the fim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 the rules should match the fim I agree with that too!. Is the ACU expecting the FIM to adopt no-stop rules at some point then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 It's not that good to feel you HAVE cleaned the section only for the Observer to mark a "5". Dibs cleaned every section except that one and I believe he felt that he had "cleaned" it. It's a subjective judgement which has been argued about for many years and is why the rules changed to allow stopping in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabby Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 It's not that good to feel you HAVE cleaned the section only for the Observer to mark a "5". Dibs cleaned every section except that one and I believe he felt that he had "cleaned" it. It's a subjective judgement which has been argued about for many years and is why the rules changed to allow stopping in the first place. Can't find the picture now, but even Stevie Wonder couldn't give him a clean for the 5 he took, unless of course you don't get a 5 for being off the bike, at one side and getting helped out the section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big john Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 I saw the photo you refered to DBF, it was posted on facebook a couple of nights ago by Alan Stay, assuming it was taken during the Sunday and not during the Saturday practice, James was being pulled out of the section by two spectators. Warning: No disrespect whatsoever to James Dabill intended: How come James didn't win the trial after cleaning 35 of the 36 sections? Answer: Because two other blokes posted scores lower than his 5! Brown on 3 and Macdonald on 4. I said earlier I would not get too embroiled in this debate or thread, but I am concerned that the ACU are coming under attack from all sides over the TSR22B - "No-stop" policy at BTC. Please remember this, the Trials & Enduro committee is staffed by volunteers, elected ones at that. They put in a lot of work over the season to make sure events happen. They have a huge responsibility, it is not an easy task. If you don't believe that, get yourself elected and try it yourself! I've also heard all the chat about breaking away from ACU to form a Trials Only organising body, hmmm... yes until the sport comes under governmental pressure and then we shall see why it is a good thing to be united with other motorcycle sports...divided we fall as they say! Big John 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabby Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) I saw the photo you refered to DBF, it was posted on facebook a couple of nights ago by Alan Stay, assuming it was taken during the Sunday and not during the Saturday practice, James was being pulled out of the section by two spectators. Big John Cheers John, found it, even I wouldn't give him a clean for that. Edited April 20, 2012 by Thedbf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02-apr Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Apart from the words "no stop" there's not much being said here that was not being said when I started forty years ago - particularly the reference to organisers trying to kill riders. La plus ca change............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizza5 Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Looks like Shaughan is saying something to Dibs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) Actually Heard from another source. The "Horse's mouth" has now been seen and his evaluation of the "5" can't be Printed Edited April 20, 2012 by Telecat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosey Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 .... and if Dabill hadn't have 5'd the section he would have won!... the trial wasn't cleaned by anybody so it wasn't like the Spanish Champ round.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 That surely can't be a picture of the 5 in question. Unless it occured right on the ends cards, whereabouts unknown in the picture, no-one could question that as a 5 as the rider is off the bike. That is from practise, surely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 .... and if Dabill hadn't have 5'd the section he would have won!... the trial wasn't cleaned by anybody so it wasn't like the Spanish Champ round.... which was easy because................... you dont know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 That surely can't be a picture of the 5 in question. Unless it occured right on the ends cards, whereabouts unknown in the picture, no-one could question that as a 5 as the rider is off the bike. That is from practise, surely? surely no stop and a practise lap is daft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 It's not that good to feel you HAVE cleaned the section only for the Observer to mark a "5". Dibs cleaned every section except that one and I believe he felt that he had "cleaned" it. It's a subjective judgement which has been argued about for many years and is why the rules changed to allow stopping in the first place. The first part of your comment can just as easily happen under either rule set, you can't single out no-stop for that. Riders still seem to think it acceptable for the bike to go backwards under the stop allowed rule and aren't happy when they find they have a 5. Secondly, that is never why the rules went from no-stop to trick riding. This happened back in twinshock days, not monos as a lot seem to think. World round riders began using the techniques on the later 80s twinshock models as a means of achieving cleans you couldn't on the older 70s models. Instead of outlawing it, it was allowed to continue and became the norm. The techniques evolved with the better bikes, just as they do now. There wasn't a conscious decision. The riders pushed the boundaries of the rules and got away with it. As for subjective, all observing is subjective. I was observing on Sunday on a section that had a tight 180 degree turn exiting over a log. Impossible to ride no-stop even with a deliberate dab due to how you had to have the bike positioned. The only way was to hop the bike 180 degrees using mainly the back wheel to get it as far away from the log as possible, hence no use going for a deliberate dab by spinning the bike round as the positioning would have been wrong to get over the log. Riders who coould hop proficiently - about 4 or 5 of the whole entry coped ok, (subjective) but only two cleaned every time. However, with all the bouncing on the spot and side to side, the bikes of the succesful riders are moving backwards relative to the section. I could have fived every one of them. Do you think that any of them would have thought they deserved a 5 after achieving what they thought was a clean? Then what about the riders who couldn't hop with the consistency required. They end up hopping the back maybe once, then their foot goes down. The bike is still pointing the wrong way. With their foot down (maybe the foot on the wrong side) they keep lifting the back wheel and dropping it sideways. If they have their 'wrong side' foot down, it starts to disappear under the sump as the back of the bike comes around. To avoid this they 'creep' their foot around with the bike without actually lifting it. What sort of score does that warrant? a dab? a two, a three? We know what they think they should have - a dab. Never mind the farce of being able to to be stationary with a foot down bouncing the back end around half a dosen times... It's always subjective, regardless of the rules, you can't attribute that to no-stop only. Don't say the section was too tight, as isn't it the kind of section the youngsters want and we are told they need to develop these hopping skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 surely no stop and a practise lap is daft? To me yes, but so is the philosophy of a practise lap at any trial... as well as minders, people giving instructions to riders on where to position their bike, intercoms, screams and shouts of 'work it', 'big effort' (never so more comical than at a club trial...) I'd loved to have seen papa Bulto yelling 'work it', 'half a tyre left, and 'big effort' to Lampkin, Vesty and co up pipeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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