Lol At The Fim

[ducati996]

Free speech is fine Opinion is fine

Of course it is interesting .

It achieves ? Absolutely nothing in the context of the title of these posts.

There can be no logic whatsoever in saying that FIM, ACU, or anyone else will continue to act like Gods, or not listen, move the sport backwards, or anything else, and then say that there is no real need to be involved. Replace the Gods, Put some effort in.

How did the various rules evolve in the first place – not by free speech, but by people trying something different. There were many fee speecher’s who decried the move away from No—Stop in first place , there were many free- speecher’s who decried the move away from 1 for a stop ( probably the best system of the lot?) there were many free-speecher’s who decried the UK for sticking with the 1 for a stop when all others forsook it . Not such a bad idea now many think?

If anyone has never attended a Club or Centre meeting and especially a Trials forum in their area or at National level ( the forums are open and are cancelled year after year through lack of attendees)

( wait for the excuses – too far, no time, too busy, nobody listens to me, if only, I would if I could or if someone would come with and hold my hand) then change will be hard to come by regardless of your views.

There is a clear misunderstanding of how things work. Not many are really that interested, far easier to just make glib comments about those who put the work in whenever a particular thing does not suit.

The people who make decisions do not fall from the sky – they are elected or appointed

The FIM and UEM Commissions are made up of people from various Federations.

The people in these Federations are made up from people from various areas/regions Centres ( just terminology varies between countries.)

The people in these areas/regions/Centres are made up from people within Clubs.

It is Clubs who in the main ( coupled with some Promoters) organise trials. I do not know in many decades anyone on FIM/ UEM/ACU/AMCA/MCF/YMSA /ORPA etc who has not come up from grass level sport. Many have been riders organisers or both. Many still are. It is not just an ACU problem , it is across the board - Do as we think, not as we do. I am told it i9s much same in other sports.

It is of course a great shame that none of these bodies take into account free speechers, or those with lots of opinions, but there you go

If someone is not involved in any of the points 1 – 7 I initially made, they are not actively involved in the organisation of that sport. Of course they can be riders, and that is important BUT it achieves nothing in the terms of change. It is exactly the same as me watching and reading about the Olympics, and then telling the organisers what they should do to ensure they make diving better.

There are bound to be many people who have a view on anything and everything. I have no doubt that their capabilities are excellent BUT unless they get involved – it just means theory.

It resorts, as I have said before to just expounding how it should all be done – but not actually doing anything. It then follows that when change takes place, for good or bad, the easy option is just to throw out a bit more opinion.

There is absolutely no reason why anyone in UK for many years should not be able to ride in a trial they think best ie Stop Allowed or No – Stop. The choice is there. Go along to your own Club and ask them to run the trial of your choice. If there are only a minority of like minded souls, that choice may not be forthcoming – but still no problem, just get the few who agree with your sentiments to help out and run such a trial , and show by example that it works.

The Stop and No-Stop rule is a red herring and just allows people to express opinion without making any effort to tackle the real problems – reason, they are boring, difficult and require work. There is no glamour in expressing an opinion about finding and maintaining venues, preventing competitors leaving litter all over a farmers field, driving through the lanes responsibly on way to event, treating Observers with the respect they deserve, occasionally writing to an organiser after the event with a few thanks, looking at the viability of an event in relation to entry fees , trying to fight off legislation which threatens within weeks the very freedom we have enjoyed in UK to run many of our events, and so on and so on – all boring stuff – leave to to the Gods.

If the theory is that at anyone’s own Club is running OK - why are so many worrying about World Trials ? Is it just a case of jumping on a bandwagon to express an opinion? Let it runs its course - the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. If nothing else we may then get a chance to have a few years off from this constant bickering about rules that has been a canker in the side of trials for so many years. It can easily move back.

How many who were enthusiastic about past World Trials offered any help to the organiser for last year UK WC ?

How many will offer to help this year? Once more I suspect down to others

Yes there are some very good young riders in UK - and yes we should promote and help them – but hey – here’s a thought – what about putting on a few Youth A & B for them – do not worry about the rules – worry about the lack of events applied for in the 2013 calendar. Is it once more a case of expressing concern and free speech about youngsters, but then hoping someone else will put an event on for them? Make their parents trawl long and expensive distances because the lack of events force little thought is possible as to the geographical placement of Championship events.

The points I posed 1 - 8 about some kind of participation are valid . Every rider in the UK could and should be able to achieve at least one of them in any given year. If not stop making excuses and just accept that you are leaving it all to others.

OK Mr Collins,I have read what you have to say and a lot of it makes sense and i agree with you,but now let me have my say.

My first involvement with trials was back in 1980 it was a minority sport then with very few youth,30yrs later we get back to trials but this time with my son only to find its still a minority sport with very few youth,in other words it has not progressed at all but the level of riding has.

We belong to the W/S Wales Centre which you are probably familiar with and as you would know is a fairly large center in that center we have about 4 youth c riders,in the welsh c & d championship there are 2 youth c riders and 2 youth d riders which you have to admit is pathetic,all this on you're door step Mr Collins.

In the 2 yrs that we have been doing trials,we have found it very difficult with very little help as a result i feel fed up and have got to the point where i dont care who i upset or offend and that includes you Mr Collins.

As for having an active role in a club and going to centre meetings to try and sort something out which should have been sorted yrs ago i dont need to when i can speak to the man himself on here.

Mr Collins,i would say the gentleman who organises our local conducted trials has done more for youth trials with very little recognition than you have ever done.

So Mr Collins i would suggest to you and you're ACU mates to open you're eyes and look at the state of youth trials in the UK especially Wales

As for the ACU re introducing stop allowed for 2013 is because they made a mistake in 2012 and wont admit it and dont know which direction to go in 2013 so they have decided to go both directions

[ducati996]

could you do a better job?

I would put it to a public vote like the government do when it comes to election,then it would be an unanimous decision

[ducati996]

I would put it to a public vote like the government do when it comes to election,then it would be an unanimous decision

Sorry mean majority decision

[martin belair]

For those paying attention.......this is only the begining.

Read the PR carefully .

Second paragraph " The first change concerns the sporting regulations"

The final line reads "additional measures will be taken in the coming months"

Edited November 11, 2012 by martin belair

[bilc0]

Im not particularly sure where this idea that theres no land to ride on comes from, i have 4 pieces of good land to ride on all within 30 mins of my home, 3 pieces that belong to people unrelated to trials i made friends with, and 1 piece that is open to all trials public.

Granted the south east of england may suffer abit where the money people have bought up the land and fenced themselves in but as a whole the rest of the country should'nt have that much of a problem. make friends.

[axulsuv]

What ever happened to the controlled rollback To tighten a turn ? When I left the sport back in the mid '70's it was the move we practiced to no end to get smooth ... Then Bernie and Eddie changed the way trials was ridden to those that had the skill ... But it was still no-stop . What did I miss along the way that said you have to be able to sit still and launch up a 7foot wall to be a trials rider ? was it the introduction of minders to catch you if you screwed up ? I remember it always being you and yourself against the loop , just like the SSDT. It was always a thinking mans sport , not somebody yelling at you as to where to set your tires ...reminds me of little league .

Just another two cents worth ...

But I just came in from riding the old Fantic in the yard ... And I always remember why I do this ... Its for me !!!

Edited November 11, 2012 by axulsuv

[ducati996]

What ever happened to the controlled rollback To tighten a turn ? When I left the sport back in the mid '70's it was the move we practiced to no end to get smooth ... Then Bernie and Eddie changed the way trials was ridden to those that had the skill ... But it was still no-stop . What did I miss along the way that said you have to be able to sit still and launch up a 7foot wall to be a trials rider ? was it the introduction of minders to catch you if you screwed up ? I remember it always being you and yourself against the loop , just like the SSDT. It was always a thinking mans sport , not somebody yelling at you as to where to set your tires ...reminds me of little league .

Just another two cents worth ...

But I just came in from riding the old Fantic in the yard ... And I always remember why I do this ... Its for me !!!

Nobody is asking you to sit still and launch up 7 foot wall unless you are a national rider and judging by the bikes you own you are a long way off that,if you find that type of trial to hard for you then there are plenty of club trials you can do

[nigel dabster]

I would put it to a public vote like the government do when it comes to election,then it would be an unanimous decision

"I would" except by your own admission you dont? I think you need to ask yourself what you can do for your sport not what your sport can do for you? (sic Kennedy)

[ducati996]

"I would" except by your own admission you dont? I think you need to ask yourself what you can do for your sport not what your sport can do for you? (sic Kennedy)

I was simply asked a question as to whether i could do better and i gave an answer,as for asking myself what i can do for the sport,i do like the majority of trials riders do ,we turn up and ride,that is our way of supporting the sport,so before you jump on you're high horse and start preaching to me that without organisers and work parties you would not have a trial then i will say to you without riders you wont need to organise a trial.

When we go to our local a & b grade trials there may be 50-60 riders with 6 sections out of that 50-60 riders they cant find 6 observers.

Some people like to ride "THE MAJORITY" and some people like to be more actively involved in the running of the sport,they do it because they want to do it,make no mistake of that and when they decide they dont want to do it they will soon let you know,its the same in all motorcycle sport not just trials

[axulsuv]

Nobody is asking you to sit still and launch up 7 foot wall unless you are a national rider and judging by the bikes you own you are a long way off that,if you find that type of trial to hard for you then there are plenty of club trials you can do

Boy , you miss alot of points/questions don't you ...

[johnnyboxer]

Boy , you miss alot of points/questions don't you ...

Just what i thought

[john collins]

Ducati 996 agree’s with much of what I say – but decided to give me a lesson in what I should and should not know about his Centre and Club which I should be familiar with?

I have no problem with any of that, if it were accurate , and once more not just jumping on a bandwagon in front of a keyboard - which is always my first reason for complaint in first place.

Unfortunately once more his views lose validity, as once more he tends to get things out of perspective and decides to use innuendo ( lie the FIM & ACU Gods) rather than facts or truth?

Some facts:

We belong to the WSW Centre which you are probably familiar with -

Well Yes – just a bit.

West South Centre Sec for about 20 years – until ACU work forced us to “ beg” past Centre Sec to re- take over- as there were no long queues , and thankfully he took over

W/S.W Vice President. Organiser of every Trials licencing seminar there has ever be in order to ensure we had the hard working souls we require to actually put on events instead of just talk. Involved every in only WSW British Adult Championship we run – our club believes bringing a Brit Champ to this area helps inspire young riders along very lines many talk about. Observe at afore said trial –EVERY year , never ever just take up official task with badge, more important to Observe. It is getting help & land to run such a Brit Trials that is our problem , not the marking rules.

One of early members of Carmarthen Club – which eventually became to V/Towy – to which he alludes.

Organiser of many dozens of WSW Trials – Clerk of Course/ Sec of Meeting/ Putting in sticks/finding the land. Doubt if there has been many years over last 30 when I have not organised at least 1 Centre trial ( usually more until recent ACU work curtailed it) Some years have organised many trials lock stock and barrel. I will not go on – but if Ducati does not actually know what goes on in his own Centre, he should not be so eager to quote from it.

I think it just indicates the very points I previously made ie easy to post views – not so easy to get involved at Club/Centre level,

As you would know it is a fairly large Centre : No it is not – it is the smallest Centre in the UK and has been for about 30 years if not more. It has the smallest number of active Trials clubs in UK. Why – because of the very points I keep making – people want to talk instead of getting involved. The WSW Clubs have the same few workers year after year . In the last VOT trial there were about 50% of the Observers of approx pensionable age. I suspect they also did a lot more work.

Worry about what FIM or ACU does is fine – worry about helpers in own club would be more beneficial.

Ducati wants us all , or in particular me to to sort out problems for him - when he does nowt

Why? Does s he think I am sort of servant or employee of him or his ilk?

In Centre we have about 4 Youth C riders - Not correct , there are more, but many have decided not to compete. One of the reasons is there is not enough events for them – and the one of reasons for this is that too many people are prepared to just on backsides and not put events on – or rely on some other “ gentleman” to do it for them – and moan about not receiving any help? What help is required that you cannot provide for yourself?

Youth C & D in Welsh Championship: Yes – the entry in that Championship is low , and Yes it needs looking at – but why do you expect me to do something about it? I attend every Welsh MotorCycle Trials forum I can – and have not missed many over years , but I am not involved in Welsh Championships any more, other than an attendee to try to show support for those who are making an effort to actually do something. I have just looked at the minutes from the early one this year( when rules/policy etc is set) – where the hard working attendees met to try to do something about such matters - You are not shown on the attendance list – did you go? Or was it down to someone else again? Perhaps they missed your name? There has been one since , if you went to that – great you are making an effort to do something about the Youth sport – which is obviously close to your heart . If you did not go however – it is you that are letting that side of sport down.

As for having an active role in a club and going to centre meetings to try and sort something out which should have been sorted yrs ago i dont need to when i can speak to the man himself on here.

If you read how stupid that sounds – you probably would not have written it. No need for you to get involved – as people should have done it for you years ago - that is just to pathetic for comment

You can speak to the man himself on here ? - Why an earth will telling me your woes about Youth C&D in your area achieve anything when I have put a lifetimes hard work into that area and you cannot be bothered to get off you’re a… and do anything or attend anything? I only post on this forum to try to explain to others the thought process that goes into may things and how it all occur – I certainly do not need to or am obliged to , and certainly dross like this posts will incline me not to bother. Criticism is fine – untruth is not.

Your own Club were awarded a C&D British Champ least year, they are awarded one this year - is it not a good idea that the ACU were prepared to look further afield and not just go to the same old organisers?

In your own Clubs trial on Saturday - there were 9 Observers – were you one of them ? If not why not?

Of course if you were Observing - I take my hat off to you and thank you ( but I would have already done that as I certainly thanked every Observer after I rode section for last time) . I make it 9 Observers, I can presume you were not one of the 3 from outside the Club ( inc a C & D parent) you were certainly not one of the 3 hard working long standing club members( or you would not have been talking so much nonsense). However you may have been one of the other two gentlemen – and if so I really do genuinely applaud you as you have fulfilled my 1 to 8 initial survey . Just let us know , and if you were – I will personally run a C& D trial of quality in the start of 2013 at which you will be welcome. It will not rely on numbers to be viable – it will be for C&D riders , regardless of how many turn up. It will run if there 2 or 40. There will be good riders there to coach and adice and help even if I have to go and fetch them myself.

All the Trials ( except Trail bike/ Twinshock) in WSW have been Stop Allowed – so it mesmerises me why what happens at WC level has an effect on this. They have been Stop Allowed for many years - so if the C&D class low and it is) - why are the rules to blame? Fortunately – the section plotters in our Centre do a brilliant job, and the severity of sections are spot on for those who ride. True we are not catering for future World Champions, we cater in the main for what we have. The Stop , No-Stop argument has very little relevance, and if the section severity is correct – it has little relevance in many Centres. It is all about putting the sticks in.

If you want to know what is to blame – I will tell you . Not enough suitable events for C&D. Too often the sections throughout being far too hard – with SOME pushy parents more interested in trying to turn offspring into World Champions than letting them ride within their capabilities and enjoy themselves.

Have you included them in any trials you have run? I have.

Why do you not “ get involved” and actually run say just one next year – and I mean run it – not just talk about it , or expect others to sort it out. There is only 1 reason why there are not 6 more C&D or specific Youth events in W SW , not enough people prepared to get involved and run them..

I feel fed up and have got to the point where i dont care who i upset or offend and that includes you Mr Collins.

Yes , that is obvious, it is far easier to offend or upset people than actually do something. It is easier to spout inaccuracies rather than take time to find out. It is fare easier of accusing others of doing nothing when nothing could be further from truth.

My initial post was aimed at a very basic concept. The concern about rules is not the main problem we are facing. The problem is the same few people are doing the work, finding the venues and running the events. WC and British Championship rules are never ever going to solve these problems and are just a diversion from what we all need to be doing.

[flappy]

Im not particularly sure where this idea that theres no land to ride on comes from, i have 4 pieces of good land to ride on all within 30 mins of my home, 3 pieces that belong to people unrelated to trials i made friends with, and 1 piece that is open to all trials public.

Granted the south east of england may suffer abit where the money people have bought up the land and fenced themselves in but as a whole the rest of the country should'nt have that much of a problem. make friends.

What I want to say is that land for us here in Cornwall is very hard to come by. Yes we have loads of waste ground through old mine workings that are perfect but unfortunately ramblers and horse riders seem to own all this and the first sign of a motorbike the police are called, it's the same for all the seldomly used wooded areas, old quarries in fact everywhere. There is a place not too far from me that has been used for trials for years, it came up for sale and some riders and another person bought it and now it's in danger of trials being stopped because the local residents are complaining about noise, it never bothered them before (it's got nothing to do with the fact that a group of them wanted to buy it but lost out). Another place very close to me, again the residents are moaning about us riding there, it's privately owned by a chap who's been riding for 50 years but these people seem to think that they have the right to stop people riding on his own land. Land IS very hard to come by, more and more is being taken from us, it may be plentiful where you are but I can assure you it's not the case everywhere and definitely not down this neck of the woods

[jimmyl]

Ducati 996"In the 2 yrs that we have been doing trials,we have found it very difficult with very little help as a result i feel fed up and have got to the point where i dont care who i upset or offend and that includes you Mr Collins".

WSW has an excellent support structure through the Project 2000 training and coaching set up - this helps all riders to progress and enjoy the sport more and is all done on a voluntary basis. Not sure if you have been to one but to say nothing is done in this centre to support riders is incorrect.

[1shy]

All this worry about the way the world championship is heading, when most of us have little we could do to make any change at that level, however we can have a lot of positive input at club level and in turn that can promote change at the very top.