zippy Posted June 14, 2013 Report Share Posted June 14, 2013 And the reason they do is that the sections they ride them on are the sort of sections that more and more people are realising are what they want from the sport of trials not splating themselves against some massive rock. Not that anybody on here will ever recognise that fact ! Nope it's because they are old farts that can't ride stop and hop, still living in the "good old days" and have more disposable income than the parents with young kids that are trying to be able to afford clothes and food for the youngsters let alone a hobby. Dang, did I actually type that out loud...................... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted June 14, 2013 Report Share Posted June 14, 2013 Oh and I personally think dadof2 started this topic with his "retro" ideas to get people riled up................................ worked didn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neils on wheels Posted June 14, 2013 Report Share Posted June 14, 2013 And the reason they do is that the sections they ride them on are the sort of sections that more and more people are realising are what they want from the sport of trials not splating themselves against some massive rock. Not that anybody on here will ever recognise that fact ! You know old trials fanatic, I do agree with you. As a 49 year old with a dodgy back, this is exactly how I've found out how much some pre-65 bikes cost! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted June 14, 2013 Report Share Posted June 14, 2013 They wont recognise that fact cos its not true. Perhaps the most popular trial in the uk for ordinary clubmen is the Reeth 3 day and in the 10 years ive been there cant ever remeber one splat. It may well be the sections but riding a pre 65 holds no intrest to the majority of riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted June 14, 2013 Report Share Posted June 14, 2013 You know old trials fanatic, I do agree with you. As a 49 year old with a dodgy back, this is exactly how I've found out how much some pre-65 bikes cost! Your back would be in better shape riding a decent modern bike with decent brakes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90vanman Posted June 14, 2013 Report Share Posted June 14, 2013 The bikes have certainly become very specialised over the last 20 or so years. Undoubtably this is limiting the market. Where do you go from here? Unless there is demand for changes trials will continue on the same path. Could end up like most other motorsports where money as much as talent is the requirement? Hi, on the subject of bikes becoming specialised, make it part of construction that they must be usable on the road ie decent seat height, like my TLR, not enjoyable on the road, but at least I don't get pulled every 5 minutes like I did with my Montesa 315r. The feds can see you have some control of the bike. Also I am getting on in age, and don't want to be breaking my neck at every section that has been set up to tax modern pogo sticks, true I'm looking for a Beta 250 4t, but that doesn't mean I suddenly turn into D. Lampkin or Toni Bou as soon as I throw my leg over it. Some years ago I was one of a group who advocated that Experts should ride on less aggressive tyres than trials tyres, perhaps an aggressive road type tyre, or something like the Trailwing, then sections don't have to endanger ordinary club riders just out for a days sport. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neils on wheels Posted June 14, 2013 Report Share Posted June 14, 2013 Your back would be in better shape riding a decent modern bike with decent brakes. My back would be in better shape without a hereditary scoliosis, I can't blame the Beta I ride for that, so please think before you add such a post. I do agree about the sections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90vanman Posted June 14, 2013 Report Share Posted June 14, 2013 Hi again, further to my comments about bike construction etc, I have thrown enough money at the TLR to buy a reasonable used Beta, but as far as I'm concerned the money and effort expended on it make comparable with anything from any factory, in MY hands at least. Can the average club rider honestly say that he can perform to the limit of say a GasGas or Sherco? When I started riding over 40 years ago it was on a Greeves Scottish 250, when trials bikes were all much of a muchness, it was the rider who could handle the bike who progressed, as soon as I could afford it I bought an early Bultaco, a much nicer bike but the sections still scared the crap out of me, there was no such thing as an easy route as we have today. These are points that could be considered. Incidentally, I joined the Eastern FOURstroke Association, but the majority of the bikes are Bantams, and Villiers powered bikes, so the few riders clinging to their big BSAs, Enfields Matchlesses etc getting the rough end of the setters-out efforts are struggling against unfavourable odds so many of them have gone the Bantam/ Cub Villiers powered route to stay competitive, and so the club is struggling to find a middle ground for all, without having to set out four routes to give everyone a fair crack at it. Sorry if this has gone on a bit but that is my personal view. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadof2 Posted June 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2013 Zippy - my post was not intended as a wind up. What does surprise me is the number of Americans who seem to be stirred up bearing in mind that their highly popular NASCAR is very highly regulated. Even F1 the pinnacle of motorsport technology is highly regulated, standard tyres, standard ECU, No ABS, No active suspension etc, etc. As the FIM letter in funtrials boycott WTC post points out trials bike production has fallen 75 %. To let the sport continue on its present path is probably unsustainable. Following some of the comments I now have the amusing vision of some riders being fixated with that horrible retro cable thingy attached to their twistgrip !!! I did not mention banning rear suspension linkages or adjustable damping on forks but both could be looked at. I think some have jumped to the wrong conclusions when ready my post, I do not want to turn the sport back. Look at the problems many riders have with their bikes and ask would it not be better if these problems were engineered out or be much cheaper to fix. I don't believe any of the suggestions I made would detract from the sport. Perhaps someone opposed to my suggestion could explain how they would have a negative effect on 99% of trials riders. I know of rider after rider cheesed off with mechanical problems ranging from difficult to diagnose ignition failure, to brakes that won't stay bled, expensive mudguards expensive brake rotors, etc etc. Is their really any advantage in having a titanium exhaust? I did not say ban alloy as on poster seems to think. I said ban magnesium (which is expensive and difficult to repair when compared to readily weldable grades of aluminium) Like Shyted, I think £5000 is just too much to throw at rocks. Someone pointed out xispa. No manufacturer can move alone on this, people will usually buy what they perceive to be the most competitive bike. It has to be by regulation by the sports governing body. Cheers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony27 Posted June 15, 2013 Report Share Posted June 15, 2013 (edited) I think a large part of very few people buying Xispas was the perception of it being a cheap chinese knock off of a sherco & the lack of quality that comes with it being chinese. The biggest reason for trials bikes having higher prices is the small number of bikes produced to spread development costs over, why do you think none of the big 5 make trials bikes anymore apart from the 4rt which hasn't had any real updates in years if there have even been any built Here in New Zealand the cost of a new trials bike is close to the cost of a mx bike except for the 4rt & possibly jotagas but then we also don't have teams of manufacturer paid riders either, all the top riders pay for their own bikes etc so the importers don't have to build that into the cost of bikes to the rest of us Edited June 15, 2013 by tony27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted June 15, 2013 Report Share Posted June 15, 2013 Dadof2. Well I guess I interpreted your post incorrectly. I don't agree with banning any of the space age expensive materials, you don't want magnesium cases or titanium exhaust, then don't buy the race or factory replica of brand XXXX bike. Buy the regular average Joe model that has alloy cases and steel exhaust. The people buy what they want. Yes NASCAR is highly regulated. It is a professional sport. Now if you are suggesting that the World Trials Competition be highly regulated in terms of equipment. That's fine, but I don't agree with that regulation coming down to club level riding. Cable clutches suck, heavy bikes suck. Those things would take the fun out of riding for us mere mortals and that is why we do it. Because it is fun. Yes I agree that trials manufacturers and the sport in general would benefit by selling cheaper entry level machines. But I highly doubt a repainted heavy twin shock from the 70's and 80's would attract anyone. Those coming from other motorcycle sports are already riding "top notch" bikes in their chosen sport. They will not be interested in a bike with 35 yr old technology. They would be enticed by something that at least seems like it is current and competitive technology at a lower price offered by an "established" manufacturer. just my opinions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laser1 Posted June 15, 2013 Report Share Posted June 15, 2013 DAD - FWIW: NASCAR popularity has been on the decline for several years now. Besides, It really requires regulation due to safety concerns, not to mention that its primarily technology driven. (MUCH more so than trials anyway - remember the typical trials mantra - its not the bike! You wont hear that one in auto racing or Street bike racing for that matter) Much closer to home, What other dirt bike sports (still talent driven) have grown through strict regulation? The only ones that are regulated are niche sports compared to the popular mainstream events that are unregulated (other than by displacement) IMO: If manufactures wanted to save money - they would. If they thought cheap bikes would sell much better - they would make them. As a side question, If price is such a driver holding back the growth - then why are many of todays highly specialized Mt. Bikes the cost of a new trials bike. They seem to sell. I don't pretend to know all the answers to these questions, Im just suggesting the market will ultimately decide and Im convinced nobody here really knows what to do to fix the sport. If they did - they should start there own company instead of bringing in regulations. I say keep the regulations out of it as much as possible. Keep the rules simple and enforceable or dont have them. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyted Posted June 15, 2013 Report Share Posted June 15, 2013 (edited) Just take a look at Pre-65 trials, they have cable operated everything, drum brakes etc. etc. and some people still chose to invest £10k a go for a 2013 works specification Tiger Cub Hello neils on wheels .How true that comment is and at the last trial i did there was a guy doing stoppies on his Bantam with drum brakes .He was doing the clubmans route with blinding success .Again though your getting cost ,and the joke adage from when i was a kid was "You can get a new one for that ". sticks in my mind Making work's spec anything cost's . Twas i that said about Xsispa and i would not buy one on the principle of quality and having lived out there seen how they work (oh dear ) but for some it might have been appealing . That's why personally i think it's a difficult thing to sort out .If at all possible. Edited June 15, 2013 by shyted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon v8 Posted June 15, 2013 Report Share Posted June 15, 2013 Its quite simple what has happened to modern trials - its killing itself because of mans natural aim for competition and progress.Much as I liked them as a bike,(And I rode one for a long time) the Yam mono era was when it all started to fall over.The bikes have become so good that they flatter even mediocre riders,getting them over terrain that previously they had no chance on. So then whoever is marking out the trial has to put in more and more stupidly difficult sections to take marks off riders.Very few are good enough to have a chance of doing well,plus they don't want to end up in hospital with a bent bike back in the garage.Its not about money either,even in recession you see every weekend people out doing their chosen pastime,fishing ,shooting, mountain biking etc - all can cost plenty of money if you want it to.I have absolutely NO intention of buying a modern bike,it leaves me stone cold - but I wouldn't let the cost of a bike get in the way if I did. So along comes "Classic trials",or whatever you want to call it - guess what its growing.... Wonder why ? Maybe because its friendly,non damaging and has sections that the average rider from 8 to over 80 can ride without killing themselves.As for the money side of it,well you can easily spend more than a modern bike would cost,but just as much fun can be had on a TY175 for less than a grand - so its not about money either. Sections that riders have a chance on is the answer,not restricting bike design. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyt Posted June 15, 2013 Report Share Posted June 15, 2013 The word "Luddite" keeps coming to mind for some of these posts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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