Looking for opinions - father and son starting out

[lowside]

Hello everyone,

My son (8) has been learning to ride motorcycles.  He's also just recently had his first trials lessons (with me learning too).  I'm a lifelong road rider with some experience of dirt riding in Spain, but nothing like trials.

I'm a bit indecisive about whether to buy bikes just yet.  On one hand, whilst I think I know what we need, I probably don't, but on the other, we're going for instruction, but then can't practice what we are being taught, which isn't efficient considering the cost of the instruction.

Our lad hasn't ridden clutched before, but I'm confident I can teach him the basics of how a clutch works, without too much trouble.  He has decent aptitude for learning things.

We've only had 2 hours of trials instruction each.  I'm a heavier rider at about 17 stone.  For me, I think a 125 might lack a bit of grunt (having 2 hours experience on one....lol), so was thinking of going for a more widely available 250.  A 200 might be ideal for me, but they are hard to find and carry a premium.  For my lad, the bike that fits him would be the Beta 80 Junior, but again, hard to find used, it seems.

Do you think we'd be better aiming for more instruction before trying to purchase bikes for ourselves?  We do have somewhere to ride, so have that advantage, it's just apparently difficult to find bikes that aren't nearly new from dealers, which are costly.  New is out of the question as we will be dropping them a lot.

To cut a long story short, do we dive in, or accrue a few more hours of practice?  He's on an OSET for training and I'm keen to get him on a clutched bike, so theres also that aspect.

Lastly, other than ebay and dealers, do legitimate (road regged) bikes often change hands between club members?  I suspect I'm probably looking for something like a Beta 250 Factory and an Evo 80 Junior for my lad.  It's just hard to find anything for sale that isn't just a year or two old and costing £4k+ for the 250.  Was hoping we could do this for about £3k for the 250 and maybe £2k for the 80.  Am I unrealistic?

Phew! long first post.  Thanks for reading if you got this far.  Appreciate any pointers.

Edited April 11, 2023 by lowside

[arthritic]

Definitely thinking along the right lines with Beta 250 (standard is good enough) and Beta 80 junior and price estimate is right. Just be patient and maybe put out a few wanted posts on Facebook, Beta page for example.

[ChrisCH]

Bike prices shot up in the lockdown.  In my view they will never come down to old prices (cars the same).  In terms of practice/lessons you need a bike sooner than later to have the opportunity to ride and practice balance.  I shared a bike with the missus at first but she hogged it so we soon ended up with two and way over my intended budget.

Nothing wrong with a Beta 80 and a 250 - those sound like a good choice to me.  You should be able to pick up half decent ones at a couple of grand and three grand respectivley.

Secondhand bikes are a minefield.  The main problem is often the previous owner(s) some of whom should never be let near a mechanical device.  Buying a cheap (£3k) bike is a lottery.  It might be fine and give good service or it might be a money pit.  My wife's Beta 250 (2014) is the sort of bike in that price range.  We bought it private from an eBay advert.  It has been reasonably OK but the front brake was poor and I have replaced disc and master cylinder and pads.  Just had the front forks set up and serviced as they were a bit poor and previously had the seals replaced.  I guess we have spent another grand on it in total.  You soon get to the same price as a newer machine.  Our previous Beta Rev 3 had a nail in the carb to stop it overflowing.  It worked OK for a while but the mechanic was a bit mystified by that "repair" when it went in for a carb clean.

Don't worry too much about dropping the bikes - they are robust.  The missus snapped the rear mudguard on hers but the replacement cost is the same more or less for all model years.

I wish you luck finding a couple of good machines.  You have chosen popular models and so vendors know they can charge top prices.  Other people are looking for the same sort of thing too and a good bike can sell quickly.  Things have settled down a bit since the peak "madness" so its not a bad time to look.  Be prepared to walk away if it isn't what you want.  That is the hard bit for all of us.

[majesty]

11 hours ago, lowside said:

Hello everyone,

My son (8) has been learning to ride motorcycles.  He's also just recently had his first trials lessons (with me learning too).  I'm a lifelong road rider with some experience of dirt riding in Spain, but nothing like trials.

I'm a bit indecisive about whether to buy bikes just yet.  On one hand, whilst I think I know what we need, I probably don't, but on the other, we're going for instruction, but then can't practice what we are being taught, which isn't efficient considering the cost of the instruction.

Our lad hasn't ridden clutched before, but I'm confident I can teach him the basics of how a clutch works, without too much trouble.  He has decent aptitude for learning things.

We've only had 2 hours of trials instruction each.  I'm a heavier rider at about 17 stone.  For me, I think a 125 might lack a bit of grunt (having 2 hours experience on one....lol), so was thinking of going for a more widely available 250.  A 200 might be ideal for me, but they are hard to find and carry a premium.  For my lad, the bike that fits him would be the Beta 80 Junior, but again, hard to find used, it seems.

Do you think we'd be better aiming for more instruction before trying to purchase bikes for ourselves?  We do have somewhere to ride, so have that advantage, it's just apparently difficult to find bikes that aren't nearly new from dealers, which are costly.  New is out of the question as we will be dropping them a lot.

To cut a long story short, do we dive in, or accrue a few more hours of practice?  He's on an OSET for training and I'm keen to get him on a clutched bike, so theres also that aspect.

Lastly, other than ebay and dealers, do legitimate (road regged) bikes often change hands between club members?  I suspect I'm probably looking for something like a Beta 250 Factory and an Evo 80 Junior for my lad.  It's just hard to find anything for sale that isn't just a year or two old and costing £4k+ for the 250.  Was hoping we could do this for about £3k for the 250 and maybe £2k for the 80.  Am I unrealistic?

Phew! long first post.  Thanks for reading if you got this far.  Appreciate any pointers.

Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

There is a Beta 200 for sale on www.ukgser.com

I dont't know if you can view it without being a subscriber.

If not, let me know and I'll see if I can put you two guys together, if it's of any interest ? 

 

[Glayne]

I got our youngest on a Beta Evo 80 Jr when he was 7, he also came off an Oset and many other auto kids petrol bikes. He learned the clutch almost instantly, first gear is super low and easy to learn. We have had zero problems with the 80 and I expect it to fit him until he is 12 at least. And yes, get bikes, the sooner the better!

[lowside]

4 hours ago, majesty said:

Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

There is a Beta 200 for sale on www.ukgser.com

I dont't know if you can view it without being a subscriber.

If not, let me know and I'll see if I can put you two guys together, if it's of any interest ? 

 

Thanks majesty, I was a subscriber on there for quite a while.  I think I can see the post you mean, if it's the Rev3?  Thats a bit older than I'd like to take on.  I think we're ideally looking for 2018 onwards, give or take.

[lowside]

43 minutes ago, Glayne said:

I got our youngest on a Beta Evo 80 Jr when he was 7, he also came off an Oset and many other auto kids petrol bikes. He learned the clutch almost instantly, first gear is super low and easy to learn. We have had zero problems with the 80 and I expect it to fit him until he is 12 at least. And yes, get bikes, the sooner the better!

So far we've been doing 1st gear work on tarmac, with some very easy sections in the forest.  Lots of low speed turning.  I think I only got up into 2nd on the flats, just wasn't needed on the sections, so you make a good point, that essentially it's just learning what the clutch lever does to start with.  At these speeds I guess I can walk alongside and catch him if he stalls out, but the 125 I was on had enough torque to pull me along without any throttle or slipping the clutch.  So surprising to me.  It was a little juddery, but considering my size...good going for a 125!

[lowside]

7 hours ago, ChrisCH said:

Bike prices shot up in the lockdown.  In my view they will never come down to old prices (cars the same).  In terms of practice/lessons you need a bike sooner than later to have the opportunity to ride and practice balance.  I shared a bike with the missus at first but she hogged it so we soon ended up with two and way over my intended budget.

Nothing wrong with a Beta 80 and a 250 - those sound like a good choice to me.  You should be able to pick up half decent ones at a couple of grand and three grand respectivley.

Secondhand bikes are a minefield.  The main problem is often the previous owner(s) some of whom should never be let near a mechanical device.  Buying a cheap (£3k) bike is a lottery.  It might be fine and give good service or it might be a money pit.  My wife's Beta 250 (2014) is the sort of bike in that price range.  We bought it private from an eBay advert.  It has been reasonably OK but the front brake was poor and I have replaced disc and master cylinder and pads.  Just had the front forks set up and serviced as they were a bit poor and previously had the seals replaced.  I guess we have spent another grand on it in total.  You soon get to the same price as a newer machine.  Our previous Beta Rev 3 had a nail in the carb to stop it overflowing.  It worked OK for a while but the mechanic was a bit mystified by that "repair" when it went in for a carb clean.

Don't worry too much about dropping the bikes - they are robust.  The missus snapped the rear mudguard on hers but the replacement cost is the same more or less for all model years.

I wish you luck finding a couple of good machines.  You have chosen popular models and so vendors know they can charge top prices.  Other people are looking for the same sort of thing too and a good bike can sell quickly.  Things have settled down a bit since the peak "madness" so its not a bad time to look.  Be prepared to walk away if it isn't what you want.  That is the hard bit for all of us.

Been caught out before on eBay with a Firestorm that had been front ended, so was hoping to find someone selling who might have a good reputation within a club etc.

I'm not dead set on a Beta (except for the 80).  I'd probably consider anything for the moment.  All of them will be capable of far more than I ever will be, so it's just reliability and parts availability that is the focus I suppose.

[ChrisCH]

14 minutes ago, lowside said:

Been caught out before on eBay with a Firestorm that had been front ended, so was hoping to find someone selling who might have a good reputation within a club etc.

I'm not dead set on a Beta (except for the 80).  I'd probably consider anything for the moment.  All of them will be capable of far more than I ever will be, so it's just reliability and parts availability that is the focus I suppose.

I tend to buy from a dealer - at least you get a guarantee that way.  The Beta is a UK favourite and parts easy, but the TRS seems to be the one to go for for many people (I have one).  Nothing major to look out for.  If you are flexible that is good - the 125cc is not to be sniffed at.

[lowside]

4 minutes ago, ChrisCH said:

I tend to buy from a dealer - at least you get a guarantee that way.  The Beta is a UK favourite and parts easy, but the TRS seems to be the one to go for for many people (I have one).  Nothing major to look out for.  If you are flexible that is good - the 125cc is not to be sniffed at.

Were I not so heavy, I'd definitely go for a 125 based on my experience so far at lessons.  It was just a little jittery, which might have been fuelling, but I think more likely to have been my weight. lol.  The only ones I'm ruling out are 280's and 300's, even though, particularly the 300's seem to be cheaper.

[woody]

1 hour ago, lowside said:

Were I not so heavy, I'd definitely go for a 125 based on my experience so far at lessons.  It was just a little jittery, which might have been fuelling, but I think more likely to have been my weight. lol.  The only ones I'm ruling out are 280's and 300's, even though, particularly the 300's seem to be cheaper.

Modern 125 will easily have enough power for what you are going to be doing as a beginner regardless of your weight. I recently rode two modern 250cc bikes which were around 3 to 4 years old, GasGas and Sherco and they were both way over powered for what an average club rider needs, very sharp power delivery off idle - and the GasGas already had a flywheel weight fitted. The clutches were like jack hammers, designed to take up full revs launches, which made slipping them on tight turns a jerky affair, no gradual take up, they just bit.  I've been riding for decades, it's the first time I've ridden a modern bike in a few years and those two were not suitable for most lower level club riders

Regards rider weight, a 1980s 156cc Fantic could pull two riders and a sidecar, a modern 125 has a bit more power than the old Fantic

[lowside]

36 minutes ago, woody said:

Modern 125 will easily have enough power for what you are going to be doing as a beginner regardless of your weight. I recently rode two modern 250cc bikes which were around 3 to 4 years old, GasGas and Sherco and they were both way over powered for what an average club rider needs, very sharp power delivery off idle - and the GasGas already had a flywheel weight fitted. The clutches were like jack hammers, designed to take up full revs launches, which made slipping them on tight turns a jerky affair, no gradual take up, they just bit.  I've been riding for decades, it's the first time I've ridden a modern bike in a few years and those two were not suitable for most lower level club riders

Regards rider weight, a 1980s 156cc Fantic could pull two riders and a sidecar, a modern 125 has a bit more power than the old Fantic

Sounds as if I should try to test ride if I can, although not sure how dealers are in that regard.  Appreciate the info and I'll keep it in mind.

[lowside]

43 minutes ago, woody said:

Modern 125 will easily have enough power for what you are going to be doing as a beginner regardless of your weight. I recently rode two modern 250cc bikes which were around 3 to 4 years old, GasGas and Sherco and they were both way over powered for what an average club rider needs, very sharp power delivery off idle - and the GasGas already had a flywheel weight fitted. The clutches were like jack hammers, designed to take up full revs launches, which made slipping them on tight turns a jerky affair, no gradual take up, they just bit.  I've been riding for decades, it's the first time I've ridden a modern bike in a few years and those two were not suitable for most lower level club riders

Regards rider weight, a 1980s 156cc Fantic could pull two riders and a sidecar, a modern 125 has a bit more power than the old Fantic

Following your post, it just occurred to me.  If I go for a 125 now, I could keep it whilst my son is on the 80, then hand the 125 down to him, part-exing the 80 against a 250 for me in 3-4 years time.

Aside from the obvious capacity difference, is the rest of the OEM kit on a bike generally the same between 125/250/300?  The prices seem to suggest so.

[timdog]

125 is same as the rest of the range in terms of spec, just smaller engine. Passing on the 125 to your son could be an option but not for several years yet and he would probably jump up to big wheel 80 first. For my 2 p worth i agree a 125 is very capable and most youngstrrs can do things with them i never could, but i dont like the power delivery. We have a 125 in the family and i couldnt ride it in a trial as well as a 250. I like the bottom end torque on the 250 not the buzzy 125.

My brother in law just bought a fantastic example of a 2019 beta 200 for 3k from fb marketplace so there are good bikes out there. With a 250, particularly beta, you will find them very smooth especially with a slow throttle if needed

[timdog]

Get bikes asap. Instruction is great but there is no substitute for bike time. You could pick the easier local trials, enter and just get practice riding round the course all day then pick any of the sections you feel confident enough to try and build up that way. You get a full day on the bikes together and learn as you go. Trials riders are a friendly bunch and you will get plenty of help and advice.

Which area are you in, local members will be able to help re the easier events and whether local clubs run any practice days. Best thing is to join facebook trials  group for your area

Edited April 13, 2023 by timdog