Otter Vale

[araf]

I can't afford the time.

Why not take the cars.

Regarding the 'your family' comment, you are part of it, so it does include you.

[money muncher]

Ottervale did a great job yet again at hosting the second round of the A & B National, I thought the standard of sections was spot on, my only gripe is that with such a large entry why did they allow out of class riding? I know that its quite common to allow riders who are to old to have a ride, but why allow riders who are to young, I know one rider who travelled along way to find himself very close to a podium finish but lost 6 marks on time, you could say that by taking a "out of class rider" away, he would probably got in on time.

[john collins]

You are absolutely correct Money Muncher.

Riders shhould not be allowed to ride out of class in National events - which of course include Brit Champ Youth events.

Not only can it add to the problem you have indicated - time wise - but even more importantly ages/ classes/machines are set - with regard safety etc.

It is possible for riders to apply to the T & E Committee to upgrade - and we occassionally do - looking at past results, listening to Centre reresentation etc.

This year 1 rider was allowed to upgrade. Some other riders were told they could not.

I do not wish to use this website to detail chapter and verse on such issues but I understand that one of these riders rode the weekend out of class ( if there were more I have not been informed - yet)

An official letter of reprimand has been sent this morning to one rider concerned - and I wish to make it clear to all riders that unless they have written permission from ACU to upgrade - in National events they must ride in correct class - on correct capacity of machine.

Riders who digress in future will be subject to disciplinary action.

[money muncher]

John ,

thanks for your reply, my only other question is would a rider who is too young to ride an event have insurance cover from the ACU should an accident occur, or would the club be liable?

[john collins]

I can really only give my own opinion on that - as with all things Insurance - there are sometimes circumstances which prevail.

Insurance companies - as we know from everyday life ( House/Motor etc) expect us to stick to the terms of the policy ie the rules.

If you had a small road traffic accident - and perhaps your vehicle was not 100 per cent as declared - I suppose you may be lucky and everyone gets paid out.

With a major accident - if your vehicle has an illegal tyre, or serious engine modifications etc ( I used to fit diesels into my petrol car without telling them years ago?) - I believe you could well be in dire straights - and land up paying out yourself.

In relation to our events - the rules are quite clear - and if an Insurnace company had a big claim - and found out that someone was riding in a class - or on wrong capacity machine - they would be more than entitled I am sure to not pay.

For a small amount - perhaps it would go un-noticed - but these days it does seem to me that everything gets checked by a loss adjuster etc. Certainly for a major claim I think there would be big problems.

As to the Organiser - it would I believe come down to had they known? taken reasonable steps to ensure all was as it should be etc.

Remember in a Youth event - both rider and parent sign to confirm acceptance of the rules.

If a rider/ parent - without knowledge of Organiser - incorrectly signed entry form - and slipped through net so to speak - I think that if the Organiser had taken all reasonable steps to ensure everything was OK - they would not have a problem

I believe any rider/parent who missled in this way - certainly would have - and could be liable to damages/costs etc.

All these things are obviously hypothetical until they happen - and the very simple answer for Organisers, riders and parents is to take no chances and do it correctly.

[as iow]

Two sides to every storey as ever and the out of class rider just happened to be my son.

First of all the Regs for this trial were sent to us with out any request from me, with a letter saying that " We look forward to seeing you at our fouthcoming event".

On the entry fourm the riders age and bike size was put with " riding out of class, for no award", written at the bottom of the entry fourm.

That entry was then accepted by the club.

At the trial it became obvious the some parents were not happy with the situation, so we withdrew from the event.

From what i saw of this other wise exellent event most of the hold ups came at section three where riders could not get through, and this was the only way up to the next sections.

My son was one of only a handfull of riders who did get through this section, so i can't see how he could be blamed for holding anyone up.

On a wider point i did see some lads hurt themselves, one nasty fall on section two.

Instead of looking at age, i have always thought that there should be a set standard, or qualifiying trial for this type of event, because most of the hold ups on Sundays were by riders who through no fault of their own, were clearly not up to the standard of this excellent event.

Would it not be possible to have a cut off mark for each lap, a bit like golf, this would reduce the number of riders on the later laps so that the top lads would not have to rush around que jumping.

But at the end of the day trials is just a sport that we all love, so lets just keep it that way.

[money muncher]

I think any one else would have realised that they had been sent the regs. by mistake and questioned the fact that there son was to young to ride.

As for trialing is just a sport that we all love, yes you are perfectly rite, but there is a chance that you could have spoilt that sport for some one else.

please think for a minute if the boot was on the other foot and an out of class rider may have contributed to your son loosing more marks(either through wrecking a line or just being an extra bike in the queue) in the C class national next week I think you may feel the same as alot of the parents there at the weekend.

[john collins]

These things are never black and white I appreciate - and I also accept that Organisers also sometimes try to cater for everyone - for at end of day that is surely what we are all trying to achieve.

Whilst it may be the case that there were lots of riders - and just that few extra did not ease the situation - in this trial - this may not always be the case - and to try to be fair to everyone - when the lad entered he could not know this - there may have only been 15 riders - so time issue would not really have been thought about.

However - the big issue here is riding in class - and whilst it is conceivable to make these sorts of mistake early in season - I want everyone to now be sure - for all or any of reasons mentioned - Youth riders in National Trials are to ride in Class - unless they have written ACU approval to do otherwise.

Just to clear things up for Events below National - A rider may compete in a higher or lowere class - AT THE DISCRETION OF ORGANISER

[as iow]

At the first round of last years C/D national several older lads took part, the one that i recall started on the C route, and finished on the D route because the C route was to hard for him . So will this practise of letting older lads take part also have to stop at C/D nationals?

[north_yorkshire_lad]

i rode the event and was not out of time but did have to rush.

John i don't know what or how you were involved with the event but i also got stuck at section three with not your son holding me up (AS iow)but mainly the people that were not willing to make a fair attempt at the section or the type of people that would rather have a good go at there dads than get there B***DY bike out of the section. i did get through section 3 most time but if you've got a complaint to make then put it to the club rather than sitting here and not making your view heard.I believe that AS iow is totally in the right and do you find it fair that people have to travel all those miles and then having to withdraw? i know coming from Leeds that a total travel time of 12 hours and then hotel cost must be heart breaking for nothing.i was happy with the severity of the sections but time was once again an issue, i know a couple of mates from Barnsley had 25 minutes left and the sections had been pulled and i still don't know what they've done to solve that.

[money muncher]

that was a brilliant reply ASiow, im going to use that one next time i have to retire!

NO I HAVE NOT RETIRED BUT HAVE WITHDRAWN FROM THE EVENT!!!

[Andy]

NO I HAVE NOT RETIRED BUT HAVE WITHDRAWN FROM THE EVENT!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Watching this as it's an interesting topic.

To me...

Retired = Unable physically or mechanically to further compete in the event.

Withdrawn = It was not in the spirit or interest of the event to continue or there were sufficient complaints to justify a withdrawal.

Not the same thing - not by a long shot. I think he did what he felt was right and withdrew his lad. The lad did not retire. He withdrew under pressure. Whether he should have been riding that class or not is an entirely different argument.

[as iow]

that was a brilliant reply  ASiow, im going to use that one next time i have to retire!

NO I HAVE NOT RETIRED BUT HAVE WITHDRAWN FROM THE EVENT!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are forced to retire.

You choose to withdraw.

[money muncher]

If there is a positive point to all this it must be that after John Collins words hopefully there won't be any more out of class riding in Nationals for the rest of the year and beyond, in all classes.

[adsy]

AS iow Posted Today, 06:49 PM

From what i saw of this other wise exellent event most of the hold ups came at section three where riders could not get through, and this was the only way up to the next sections.

My son was one of only a handfull of riders who did get through this section, so i can't see how he could be blamed for holding anyone up.

On a wider point i did see some lads hurt themselves, one nasty fall on section two.

Instead of looking at age, i have always thought that there should be a set standard, or qualifiying trial for this type of event, because most of the hold ups on Sundays were by riders who through no fault of their own, were clearly not up to the standard of this excellent event.

I think you have good point here Alan, If your Chris had completed the event I am sure that he would not have been last!!!

Frankly there are alot of riders competing in Youth Nationals, that are either not good enough or not been riding long enough. The current Youth Nationals are running under the same time limits of years ago, but with at least 30 or more riders, which inevitably makes time more of an issue. The first 2 rounds have turned into virtual Enduros for us. Either the clubs need to add another 1/2 hour to the time limit or some sort of grading system like Alan says needs to be brought in. Riders should be aspiring to ride in these events, not just havin a go for the sake of it, to the cost of the better lads who spend a small fortune travelling to all of the rounds, to possibly end up with unnecessary time penalties which may drop them one or two places due to being held up by riders struggling & getting stuck in sections, trials is about skill & balance, not speed (apart from the Scott).

P.S. Their is a big difference between retiring and withdrawing.

Thats my ten penneth!