Lance Armstrong?

[mich lin]

Well put nsaqam and Steve, you both are 100% on track.

Steve, maybe you are unaware of one point, I did make a presentation through my NATC rep at the last NATC meeting, which was the proper order of things. I would have rather presented it myself but that was impossible, I'm not the rep from our club.

The chairman of the NATC asked me to present a program that would provide the stepping stones to the world championship I've been talking about here, a system that would support the young tigers. Yet he damanded that the new system not detract from the sportsmen nationals, which is a very tough order and something nobody has been able to figure out anytime before. In other words he asked me to put up or shut up which I did.

I spent a great deal of time and energy on this presentation, so my participation has been far more than just on this board, it has been in the halls of the NATC itself. It takes a great amount of time to create a proposal that solves the lack of stepping stones and other problems in the US series hindering more American world champions. Then even more time to bring my NATC rep up to speed on the concept so he could pitch it.

It included the absolutly vital 125cc national title, contested on the sportsmen course. With 5 final sections for the best 5 riders only, run El Trial foremat of exhibition sections before a large gallery of spectators.

It also proposed an expanded Pro class combining the exsisting Pro, Sportsmen Expert and Expert classes on an easier pro course with 5 final sections of world class caliber, again only for the top 5 riders, El Trial Style. Which made for greater spectating pleasure and press presentation. The final factor so important for another world champion was greatly upping the pressure on the US pros, which is what they need most!

It also didn't forget the ladies, it moved the ladies championship to the Youth nationals, which would allow more ladies to compete and hold an national number. Also something very important, would allow the best ladies to move up into the higher NATC national men's classes. Which they need to do, if they hope to ride with Laia Sanz, who is at a US Pro Class level. Only by riding with the boys will US women move back to the top of the world.

This proposal would have brung the needed changes to the series to create a similar atmosphere to what we had before in the 1970s that produced world round points earning American trials riders and two American world champions. Bernie Schriber and Debbie Evans.

[nsaqam]

Thank you for your very informative reply Mr. Bechard. Of course you are correct in saying that youngsters pushing one another under the guidance of a quality coach is what is going to produce the results that most of us would like to see. But why hasn't this happened before? Since Mr. Schrieber in the '70s for Gods sake! I would think that in a country as large as ours we would have produced a champion in the 30 years since then just by happenstance.

Your point about the 125cc Youth Championship requirement is insightful too. However, I believe that to progress in a European dominated competition we in America need to play by their rules on this matter. As to whether a new bike can be afforded every couple of years, some families cannot but many families can. I rarely see a 3 year old bike at my local MX track. Some folks get 2 bikes a year, and many get a new bike every year. These folks aren't making money racing, their spending it. Alot of it!

I'm very happy that places like the TTC and ITS exist for our kids and us old folks. I hope to take advantage of their services in the future. Bravo to all the good people who are giving their time and energy and devotion to this sport!I just wish guys like Chris Florin didn't have to make the tough decision he has to make. I wish the process of producing World Champions was further along in America than it is. And I wish Observed Trials had the exposure and monetary success it truly deserves. It'll take some American Champions to get there.

[nsaqam]

Excuse my newbie ignorance but what is the "ElTrial" format?

[alan bechard]

Thank you for your very informative reply Mr. Bechard. Of course you are correct in saying that youngsters pushing one another under the guidance of a quality coach is what is going to produce the results that most of us would like to see. But why hasn't this happened before? Since Mr. Schrieber in the '70s for Gods sake! I would think that in a country as large as ours we would have produced a champion in the 30 years since then just by happenstance.

It has not happened before because of interest and location (or maybe I mean Proximity to other riders)

Most of us do not put having a WR American rider at the top of our list of priorities.

It takes some real dedication to get to the top level of just about ANY competition that you want to talk about. Look at Gymnastics, skating, etc. etc. Those folks send their kids off to live with a coach somewhere and do nothing but train for YEARS in the hopes that they come out on top.

I ride Trials to have a good time, spend some quality time with my kids, and be around a great bunch of folks that I would like my kids to learn from and be around. THATS IT I do not have aspirations of my child being World Champ, If THEY want it bad enough, they will put in the determined effort but so far I have not seen that.

Les Mizell has the perfect scenario going to have the next child star. GREAT family support, Les works with his kids and put's them at the front in his life constantly. They have a built in set of Progressivly better practice partners. I believe you will see the Younger children excell past the older children because they have "seen it" done at a earlier age. I think you will see incredible things out of this great family as these kids come into their own.

I am not as familiar with Patrick Smage's circumstances, but I believe them to be much the same. Older siblings to practice with and learn from, Incredibly supportive parents and family putting their childrens needs to the front.

The example I would use is when my son wanted the training wheels off his bicycle at 3, was he motivated by Lance Armstrong? Did he have a burning desire to be World Champ, was I trying to coax him into being the next Trials Superstar? No, his 9 year old sister said he was a baby because he had baby wheels on his bicycle. They came off and he never looked back.

You have a child Correct? Would you be willing to send your child off to train for 6 months with someone else for the possibility of being World Champ?

[mich lin]

El Trial style is where everyone rides the normal trial. Then while the officals are figuring the lower class results the top Pro riders do an extra 5 world class sections. El Trial is always well attended and the exhibition sections are always lined with huge crouds.

This makes a big gallery for the press pictures, that includes the riders of the lower classes who are now spectators. Who now can't watch the best ride with the current national structure and of course the people who came to just watch the trial. El Trial sections are usally in one area making it possible to watch the action without hiking all over hill and dale.

Riding before a croud also puts added pressure on the top riders, making them better! Plus it allows world class sections for the top 5 men, without putting the rest of the riders in danger, yets puts pressure on them to make the cut.

Of course training camps are also important, as mentioned! But who will be the trainer? Will it be the blind leading the blind or do we bring someone from Europe who is known as a great trainer? Of course we need trainers from Europe!

Just a few weeks ago Lewisport brought the offical ACU British national trainer to the USA. He did seminars at a couple locations and it was fantastic. It was amazing how fast he pointed out the weak points in some youngsters riding techniques. They were good at the zips and zaps big stuff but didn't know how to get the bike to hook up and get traction. He pointed out the flaws it the American riding technique almost instantly.

Now that was a training camp! Not like a bunch of kids getting together and riding the same sections using the same techniques over and over again. Simply practicing their bad habits. Remember it took Europeans coming to America to put US MX on the map.

US Trials needs the MX mindset, which is the BIG TENT mentality! There has to be room for everyone, the sportsmen forever riders and the families that want to provide the oppertunity for their kid to be the next RC.

In trials you find that people often want to hold things back, simply because they are not willing to make the sacrifices needed to have thier kid become someone like RC. In other words they want the benifits of being a top rider without the sacrifices of buying the bikes, Doing the training, pulling the wrenches and traveling all over the place.

Simply, if trials goes to the Olympics, they are happy and proud to have their kids march into the stadium. But they will not make the sacrifices needed to put them on the medals podium. That's unAmerican!

[steve fracy]

Lane:

I am well aware of your proposal and the beginning of the year! If you remember I posted you a long reply after that encouraging you to stick with it because I felt the proposal was very close to being accepted, perhaps next season.

Al B. I guess we have to dis-agree about the 125 class. I beleive that bringing the kids along on 125's first, before advancing to the big bikes, will actually HELP build there skills and in the long run will make them BETTER riders. If you watch the style that the Euros ride, they generally use WAY more throttle when attacking big obstacles. This all stems from HAVING to ride that way to make the little 125 do some amazing things.It's more of a natural step, and their style does not change, just the height of the obstacle!

That being said, I also believe that James Lampkins comments about rider's in general in the US(and Canada) spend too much time concentrating on hopping and slingshotting at obstacles, and don't ever learn the basics properly!

Cheers, Steve

PS. Sorry Sam, who would have thought that this thread about Lance would have gone this way?

[alan bechard]

Lane:

Al B. I guess we have to dis-agree about the 125 class. I beleive that bringing the kids along on 125's first, before advancing to the big bikes, will actually HELP build there skills and in the long run will make them BETTER riders. If you watch the style that the Euros ride, they generally use WAY more throttle when attacking big obstacles. This all stems from HAVING to ride that way to make the little 125 do some amazing things.It's more of a natural step, and their style does not change, just the height of the obstacle!

That being said, I also believe that James Lampkins comments about rider's in general in the US(and Canada) spend too much time concentrating on hopping and slingshotting at obstacles, and don't ever learn the basics properly!

Cheers, Steve

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just to make sure that you know my position.

I believe it is the individuals choice if they want to ride a 125 or not. I beleive that is the correct way to do it.

I believe that to further segregate the classes of riders in the championship will only be detrimental to the factor of "competition" that I think is exactly what you are actually trying to achieve.

I believe to use the European Model of the 125 class and say what a success it is and we should do the same is looking at it with a very narrow vision. Trials is not the same here on scope or scale to compare to the European model (and actually we mean English / Spanish as it is those countries that we actually hold up more as examples) Look over on those Youth threads where they have 100 plus youth showing up on 125's to compete in those championships.

I believe that what is best for the Young and Aspiring riders in the US is to have as much free and open competition as possible, to help to facilitate riding together and competing amongst one another. I certainly do not think further segragating classes will help this along.

Can anyone locate that last thread we had on the 125 class proposal. I asked the pointed question there, (and I cannot find it now)

WHAT LINE WILL THIS CLASS RIDE AND WHO (Name Names) IS GOING TO RIDE IT?

And for what it is worth Steve, my 15 year old daughter is still on a 125, and if my son want's to progress onto the world stage, I would keep him on a 125 to help him develop technique. However if I wanted him to be US champ, he would spend time competing on the bikes that those guy's compete on. It would be a matter of selecting the appropriate bike for what HIS goals were.

And I darn sure do not want an organisation (NATC in this case) telling my what bike my kid can compete on.

[nsaqam]

Yes I do have children Alan, only my daughter is old enough to ride though. If my girl showed the dedication neccesary and the desire to become world class I would indeed do whatever was required for her to achieve her goal. As would you I presume. (your child not mine). I just hope when she's ready to make that step she could do it in North America. With the support and guidance from those she rode with to get to that point. Would I move to Europe if that was required? Yes, I love Europe and all its history and I would love it.

As to the 125cc point, if you want to play with the best you have to follow their program. As an analogy, if the U.S. wanted to field a competitive car in F1 we'd have to follow their formula of 2.4 liter V8 engines.

[nsaqam]

Thanks Lane for your explanation of the ElTrial format. That sound like an excellent idea. I hope that the proposal you had presented to the NATC gets a fair hearing and is adopted.

Sorry Sam for the thread hijack but Lance Armstrong's story goes very much to the point I've been making about interest in a sport going way up in America when an American starts winning.

Thanks to everyone on this forum for all the wisdom and knowledge you've imparted so far and I hope to learn much more in the future.

[perce]

We have the luxury in the US of not having to fall under the confinement that a lot of the riders in Europe struggle, yep, I said STRUGGLE under.  Not everyone can afford, or has the desire to have a new bike every year of this displacement or that displacemnent.  If I am reading things right, many clubs will not even let a youth compete on anything but a 125.  Now how would that go over, over here?  You think a lot of 125's would just "appear" so they were plentiful and cheap for your youngster to give it a try?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The 125 & also 50 / 80 cc age limitations have been fed into the system over a number of years, this has allowed to a point the availabilty of cheaper 2nd hand bikes to be available. Having said that the market over here is seriously deflated on ALL 2nd hand bikes everyone seems to want to buy new. Try selling a year old bike, certainly don't expect a windfall!

Up until this year riding out of class on an over capacity bike has been allowed but to my knowledge this has now been stopped on insurance grounds, clubs simply aren't allowed to take the entry.

[gaby]

Adding to the list:

Ricky Carmichael, We have all seen the picture of him holding his Scorpa!

Mike Larracco, 2yrs ago Sherco US spoke to him at a motorcycle show, he mentioned he owned a couple of trials bikes and had a pit set up for trials riding near his home!

Guy Cooper, The guy was very vocal about trials!

David Knight, We all have read about this guys trials back ground.

Juha Salminen, Same back ground as Knight.

Even are beloved John Wayne had a TL125 on his ranch!

Who else?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't forget the 'ol Michigan flat-tracker.... Kevin Atherton!

[mich lin]

Alan, let me ask you these questions.

Is your position that the kids need more competition in larger groups to ride against and less classes on any size bike?

If so, Then do you agree with me that at the youth nationals we drop all the age classes and go to fewer A,B and C classes or some mix like that. Grouping kids into larger classes where they mix ages more between the riders?

That would eliminate the problem we have now with kids who contest the youth nationals every year and never ever compete against kids a year older or younger than them. By enlarging the age groups these same kids would mix it up.

Is that your position, modify the youth nationals?

Edited April 7, 2006 by Mich Lin

[brian r]

The kids in the Youth Nationals ride the same line for 2 years.

This in effect has the kids competing against younger kids one year

and older kids the next.

Sure the trophies are designated for the age group, but I know you

don't want to take trophies away from kids, do you?

I also believe that the kids can move up a line if they want to

for competitive reasons, or even down a line and ride in exhibition.

[hensley]

im going to have too join in here im by no means as knowlegable about trials in general as many of the people on this forum. i dont really have much to say that brian r and alan b hasnt already said. common sense tells me that added regulations isnt the answer, if i understand previous post now in europe a youth is not even allowed to ride bigger than a 125 for insurance reasons. If 2 stroke are outlawed in europe are we going to outlaw them here. I have a 12 year old on a 280 the reason so if we have a bike down when were riding at home we can trade off plus i really cant afford to trade up every year. I/we have no visions of him becoming a world champ rider just having fun. as ive stated before if he happens to beat a better rider who is ridding a 125 isnt more competion what the 125 rider with visions of europe needs. seems to me the reason we arent competitive is because of distance to travel for events. i bet if you took all the US riders and grouped them in a small area like spain. and took all the spanish riders and scattered them across the US it wouldnt be long and things would equal out. more people riding trials here in the US will produce the competitive riders we need. This topic started out on a positive note about a famous bycycle getting a trials bike and what pr it might bring to trials here in the US and has kinda ended up trashing natc and trials in general here in the US. If we spent as much time practicing with our youth and promoting trials as we do talking about some magic regulation i think we would make more progress.

[alan bechard]

Alan, let me ask you these questions.

Is your position that the kids need more competition in larger groups to ride against and less classes on any size bike?

If so, Then do you agree with me that at the youth nationals we drop all the age classes and go to fewer A,B and C classes or some mix like that. Grouping kids into larger classes where they mix ages more between the riders? 

That would eliminate the problem we have now with kids who contest the youth nationals every year and never ever compete against kids a year older or younger than them. By enlarging the age groups these same kids would mix it up.

Is that your position, modify the youth nationals?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never said modify the youth nationals here. That is why I do not normally post on the same posts as you Lane, it is impossible to keep on target. 5 posts from now you will be saying how I said I wanted to change the Youth Nationals and someone will believe it.

I believe that the National series going on, The Youth Nationals and the local events that the youngsters participate in make a fine formulae to provide an avenue to greater things if that is the desire of the child.

I also believe that John sums it up quite well when you compare geography versus number of riders.