diggler Posted April 11, 2007 Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 I think we are getting a bit side tracked here ! I think the point Mike is making (and a lot of riders of the classic series) is that these events are to find an ACU champion, and should be set out accordingly. If a mistake is made in one section, and a mark or two lost, surely the event should provide some opportunity for these marks to be made back !! I am C of C for one of these rounds and would be horrifed if someone went all day clean ! on the flip side all sections are marked so at the very least a rider on a Tiger Cub or matchless could sit down and leg it through for a three ! I am all for easy trials so the new starters etc can enjoy themselves with out a big repair bill or injury, but I dont think a national trial with a championship at stake is the place for this ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totalshell Posted April 11, 2007 Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 spot on diggler, at the club trial i expect the easy route to be that with maybe two challenging sections to take the marks. at a national championship i'd expect the flip of that to be the case with maxfield gaunt thorpe et al in danger of dropping one on every section and with two real sections where 3's are do-able and only the very very best will do better than a 3. I believe doug lampkin is a big fan of harder trials, because then its about how you approach the whole trial and not just having to ride clean but having to drop 3 to save 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted April 11, 2007 Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 I wasn't going to comment on this one, but, as Diggler says, things have gone a bit off track, so I thought I would. Firstly, as he's pointed out, this is a National championship. The regulars in this series take it seriously and enjoy the competition. As such sections should provide a good test of the competitors riding skills. This doesn't mean they have to be ridiculous or dangerously hard, they can be technically challenging without being too severe and should ideally aim take at least double figures off the winner in each class. This allows riders the chance to pull marks back on fellow competitors as the trial progresses and gives an incentive to try harder. If some riders are losing over 100 marks because of this and moaning about it they have to remember they are taking part in a National championship, not a club trial. Club trials cater for beginners, Nationals don't. As regards the Welsh Trophy, I don't know what went wrong with section plotting but as Bikespace mentioned and as I am aware myself from marking out sections for my own club, many factors can contribute to how sections ride on the day of the event, but some were very bland, even if the weather had been bad. I was told that the trial was put on jointly by Clive and Llanfyllin clubs - apologies if this is incorrect. I have ridden many events organised by both clubs over the last 30 years and they have always been first class trials, so why this one ended up on the easy side I don't know. The organisation, route marking, results service etc. were all excellent but the sections were not enough of a challenge. Some, although only a few, were very tight which isn't necessary and although I could ride them without touching the clutch, just, it encouraged some stopping and hopping from some riders which I really, really hate in a no-stop series and which really ****es me off. Unfortunately they got away with it and didn't get fives. I don't blame the observers, some of whom were young and probably don't understand the original concept of no-stop, it's down to the riders as they know the rules and what they can or can't do - or they'd soon learn if they got fives. But hopping and bouncing is what happens with tight sections. On a personal note, I'd like to see the championship get back to its roots and get away from supporting the sidecar events whenever possible. Someone mentioned the two don't mix. I'd say not necessarily true. South Birmingham manage to get the sections right for the DK Mansell when it is a round, as have Bewedly when they have staged rounds in conjunction with sidecars, so it is possible. There are two more sidecar/Classic rounds coming up in the summer, Doncaster Cup and Rosebowl and I shan't be going to either. The Doncaster offers nothing to the Classic runners in terms of a test and it is the same every year so enough is enough for me. Ditto the Rosebowl. Hopefully, if others don't attend someone, somewhere may realise something is wrong and either drop them from the series, or ensure they put on sections befitting of a National Classic championship. I'd also like to see two routes again, Championship riders on the hard route and a clubman/support class on the easier route. Should encourage more Pre65 and twinshocks into the series instead of many twinshocks migrating to the Miller series, in which they now almost (or do) out number the Pre65 entries. And a final word on section 'severity' - for want of a better description. There are some good riders in this series, on Pre65 and twinshock bikes and I think people have forgotten over time just what a modernised Pre65 or standard twinshock bike, with a good rider on board is capable of. If this series is to continue and encourage riders to travel the length and breadth of the country to each round, then perhaps the ACU should ensure that clubs who want to stage a round understand what the required standard is. Equally, I think it is time that clubs applying to run a round in conjunction with their sidecar event, just to make it viable, should now be passed over in favour of clubs more interested in the Classic event itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin m. s/c Posted April 11, 2007 Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 I agree that the classics and sidecars can mix. The Colin Dommett trial at Newquay is an example of this. The guys didn't get the Welsh correct to suit everyone. The expert sidecars and the solos rode the same sections and we only lost 19 on the sidecar including two daft fives! so it was too easy for us as well really. When the classic series started with Pre 65 bikes and twinshocks it did fit in better with the sidecars but with the addition of air cooled monos and over 40's on modern bikes it doesn't make sense. Let's face it a decent over 40 rider on the latest bike is head and shoulders above a sidecar. It needed a 3rd harder route to suit these riders. In our clubs national the Merle Morewood Peak we have the classics riding approx 10 off the expert solo sections to sort them out and this worked fine last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthehill Posted April 11, 2007 Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 (edited) Lots for everyone in this weeks writings however only the severity of sections issue has got anyone going. On Mikes first point its good to see the 4strokes making a return to trials - the way Dabill is riding at the moment there must be a real chance of a 4stroke winning the SSDT after 40 years of two stroke dominance - but then we all know winning the Scottish takes a lot more than being good in the sections ! Its refreshing to have some mention of other forms of bikesport in TC - ok many trials riders have no interest in other bikes but there are just as many, myself included, that are passionate about any form of transport with two wheels (even those without engines). If anyone out there has not been to a moto GP you should try it just for the experience! - what i find difficult is watching motorcycle sport unless its at the top level - i find myself wishing that i was riding - this is why trials riders never want to observe! As far as section severity goes, I first started riding in the late 70s when you either rode the single route national trials or you didnt ride. The introduction of dual routes and club trials has encouraged more competitors out, but it has also capped many riders standard. I see a lot of riders competing on the 'B' route where they should be giving themselves a greater challenge as they are more than capable. good column Mike - and good to see you out at the weekend across the border - you must have had a busy Sunday! Edited April 11, 2007 by overthehill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlestar Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Having only been doing trials for a couple of years as a competitor I see some points about severity of sections. However, I used to pack in a trial at the first sign of a hard section, I would think "Woah thats too steep/ hard/ deep for me. Ill never get up there without killing myself and my bike." And from that I didnt improve. So now I have ,ade a pact with myself that I will always try and finish the trial and at least attempt the sections. This envolves a lot of help from my dad and his friends (thanks guys! ) but now I am slowly but surely improving, ability and confidence wise. The point Im trying to make is, that if you dont try the hard stuff you will never be able to do it. Again, no pain no gain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitley Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 I rode the Welsh the other sunday and i must aggree it was a bit on the easy side for a National Champs Round. Forgive me if it sounds as i am organiser bashing but far from it. I know how much work goes in to putting on a trial, The point i am getting at is if your club applies to run a certain championship round eg classic, i feel the C o C should be well aware of the standard of rider for said series, and possibly taking part in said series (as Diggler) so standards dont drop. National in my book means people travelling a bloody long way to ride a quality trial.!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottt Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Why don't people phone the club before hand to find out what kind of trial it's gonna be before hand that way they'd know what there turning up to, and i dont have to listen to there negative view's about the trial. Hi Bilco, yes I have done that. I have 4 local clubs, from what i've found 2 of the clubs run a course that is difficult for me ( a novice) but still quite do-able, the other 2 clubs there easy sections are just a bit more than i'm capable of at the moment. The point i was making it would be nice it clubs realised that we are customers and treated us accordingly, I went to a trial on Monday, had a great day, finished 3rd last but never felt to far out my depth, went home happy. Another plus point was the club had 2 vans with 1 person taking entries the other club memberships, and even a sign on the van saying "4 laps" nice little touch and something I havent seen before. I'll be a regular customer. Being new to trials and thinking a standard Trial is 4 laps of 10 sections I got a bit of a surprise on the Sunday when I arrived at the 11th section and found out that it was 5 laps!!! The person taking the entries didnt mention this, ok it might be a regular club thing but as it was round 3 of a sponsered series I just naturaly thought it would be 4 laps of 10 just like rounds 1 & 2 were. I can appreciate how thing might be at the other end off the scale and that there can never be a trial run where every section/route suits all taking part, there is no easy answer. Scott. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabie Posted April 13, 2007 Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 avoiding the national point (and the road racing which i haven't seen any of this year) and going to the beginners issue down in this end of the world several clubs run trials entitled "beginners and wobblers" (you find me riding these when I'm occasionaly free enough to ride!) which are pitched at the real beginners. my clubs one is two routes, one for trials beginners (ie easier than a novice route) and one for trail riders (LDT types, and real wobblers). some other clubs put their wobblers alongside their club trials. thus your very specifically pitching it at the newbies and the experts have (normally) cleared off elsewhere. back to the controversy - getting a trial pitched "right" for every class requires the wisdom and skill of Solomon and with the weather conspiring against you means that even the best clubs get it wrong occasionally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpa3 Posted April 13, 2007 Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 I remember setting out five sections at Saintbury Quarry for a Miller Classic round a few years back. (Two or three years back.) It was bone dry and a gorgeous day, the winners of each solo class finished in single figures, but still a couple of riders complained that the sections in Saintbury were too tight for the hard route. At two of the five I'd set out, there were no cleans, almost everyone had a single dab on each. (There were a small handful of 'fives' and a few other 'two's and three's' but generally a dab did it.) From memory, around 30 riders lost their first marks here and the winner of the event cleaned everything else inthe trial....... and I still got stick for making those sections too tight. Getting the severity right for everyone is a work of art! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilco Posted April 13, 2007 Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 Being new to trials and thinking a standard Trial is 4 laps of 10 sections I got a bit of a surprise on the Sunday when I arrived at the 11th section and found out that it was 5 laps!!! The person taking the entries didnt mention this, ok it might be a regular club thing but as it was round 3 of a sponsered series I just naturaly thought it would be 4 laps of 10 just like rounds 1 & 2 were.Scott. hi scott Yer the lap's thing can differ abit depending on size of land or how hard they want to push you on the day.It's worth asking that question before you set off aswell. Trial's club are abit like having five pub's in your town,only one would be your choice of local's that you feel at home with,but it's also good to venture out and try something diffrent. Just out of interest i notice you have a sherco and a ty175,,,what one do you enjoy ridding the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitley Posted April 13, 2007 Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 We gone off the topic again, i thought this thread was about the national classic champs not club events.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 I still don't think that between the Classic series & the Novagar series that there is a real over 40's championship. Can't see why the Novagar's can't have a second route similar level to what's done in the Jack Wood, wouldn't be far wrong to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldilocks Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 I think at some of the novogars like the Alan and the Lomax you'd be fine Perce, you'd lose a few more than you would on a middle route but you would enjoy it. Other events like the Vic Brittain are a bit harder though, I still enjoy them but I'm losing 100 marks in 40 sections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paioli Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 lots of very good over 40's on modern bikes around these days, not classics are they! maybe its time to have one over 40 champonship in the novagar and the classics to just have an award from trial to trial and let the CofC get back to setting the classic trials out for the classic BIKES !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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