Andy Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 Well, last week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyl Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 I think your last sentence almost contradicts the the rest of the the article. Nobody can compete in an F1 weekend unless they have several million in their back pocket yet several chaps for the cost of the Scot entry fee rode the same route and at the same time and featured on the same result sheet as 2 world champs. (anybody who made it to the finish could argue that they have beaten Dougie as the term still I believe is reliability trials). What other sport can offer this? 280 odd riders spent 6 days in May trying to beat probably one of the best riders of modern times and we nearly had him (not) but I rode the same rocks at the same time as he did. The world and British rounds are extreme but what other sport can you get that close to the action and with world stars that are still approachable. Nobody can appreciate what it is like to drive an F1 car but we can appreciate what Bou and Raga do as they are more or less on the same machine and doing what we do only a lot more extreme. Mind we can all crash as good as them!! Maybe we should look at what is good about our sport rather looking to to pick faults all the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cleanorbust Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 I agree that trials at British and World Championship level (I hesitate to say "top" level because that could imply that other trials are inferior) have moved far away from what they were even a few years ago. There seems to have been a quantum leap in ability of the top riders which has had the effect of, in my mind, actually creating a different sport. This isn't a criticism, just a statement of natural evolution which is irreversible, but thank goodness there are still events using sensible, natural obstacles which take marks off the whole entry and remain enjoyable to ride. What I do question is just how enjoyable it is for expert riders to spend the day coaxing, heaving, stop-starting their way up and down the bankings of streams which the rest of us revel in riding straight up, even if they have a few cleans along the way? Does the action of urging the bike over the most contrived obstacles, spending ages atop a boulder the height of a Transit van with one foot down ready to try launching onto the next one which is ten feet away, for a few hours on a Sunday any longer constitute "a good ride round"? I guess in all honesty it must, or those who ride the hard routes wouldn't come back for more week after week, but pose the question as a genuine one. Like Rappers, I was around for British Championshio events where anyone could turn up with a standard bike, which probably wasn't that far off what Rathmell and the Lampkins were riding, have a good go at exactly the same sections as they were riding and have the kind of day out which you'd savour for months. I'm glad to be able to say this, 'cos those days are gone for good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsnutterman Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 I think your last sentence almost contradicts the the rest of the the article. Nobody can compete in an F1 weekend unless they have several million in their back pocket yet several chaps for the cost of the Scot entry fee rode the same route and at the same time and featured on the same result sheet as 2 world champs. (anybody who made it to the finish could argue that they have beaten Dougie as the term still I believe is reliability trials).What other sport can offer this? 280 odd riders spent 6 days in May trying to beat probably one of the best riders of modern times and we nearly had him (not) but I rode the same rocks at the same time as he did. The world and British rounds are extreme but what other sport can you get that close to the action and with world stars that are still approachable. Nobody can appreciate what it is like to drive an F1 car but we can appreciate what Bou and Raga do as they are more or less on the same machine and doing what we do only a lot more extreme. Mind we can all crash as good as them!! Maybe we should look at what is good about our sport rather looking to to pick faults all the time I might be wrong but I read Rapley comments as exactly what you are saying, you can ride against the best in the world and even compete with them to a certain extent with the good traditional trials but nobody apart from maybe 3 or 4 can even attempt to have a go when it comes to the British Champs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpa3 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 How about road racing? What Valentino Rossi and Casey Stoner do is quite clear and if you go road racing there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 I actually think you have it wrong mike. You say you can't understand how the top riders get up the obstacles they do probably because you really understand what is required to get up the things you do. The converse of what it actually is. You know about trials and think (like me) there is no way I could get a bike up that. Yet why do you think you could ride a MX bike around donnington at anything like the speed skill or technique the top british lads do. To my way of thinking its like two routes in trials, or two speeds in road racing Enduro or mx, its the same, one is a speed sport one is a skill, and I know which I think is the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizza5 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 I actually think you have it wrong mike. and the rest of us are all right of course , it is all based on opinions and each to there own, Mikes beleif is I beleive that the WTC and BTC can't be sustainable in its present format, those people that do think it can continue in this way are slightly deluded. You can't compare trials to any other sport most other sports at British Championship level you would have to pay and watch, Trials is FREE, but how many people turn up and watch, surely if it was that good people would be queueing to watch. I marvel at the stuff Bou and Raga can do, but this is just 2 guys and I feel the sport has been taken to their level and the rest will just have to struggle and make up the numbers. Who next year will win one of the WTC rounds...............come on place your bets? anyone beyond these 2 riders.............didn't think so. Oh won't it be exciting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomant Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Who next year will win one of the WTC rounds...............come on place your bets? anyone beyond these 2 riders.............didn't think so.Oh won't it be exciting The battle between Raga & Bou has been pretty close this year I reckon (208 to 225 points). In times gone by, there were times when it was clear there was only going to be just one winner from the outset. When Dougie contested the 1998 championship for instance, he won 15 of the 18 rounds and amassed a total of 351 points! Some 87 points in front of Marc Colomer in second place. Is it not exciting perhaps because it's two Spanish riders instead of being two Brits fighting for the title? I also think Mike that your rationale for your assumptions are flawed. All sports have an elite who have some extraordinary talent that puts them at the top of the best of the rest. You mentioned golf for instance. The first grand slam winner Bobby Jones, made the infamous quote when he saw Jack Nicklaus perform which was. ''He plays a game with which I am not familiar.'' In trials, you could argue that Doug Lampkin could make the same comment about Bou for instance. These guys have just upped the bar to heights never seen before and its alien to a lot of us, me included. But like golf, people can still play their game whilst the best play theirs and everyone's happy. Why is this any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ishy Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 If you look at reasons brought up why some say it can't carry on as is! Not enough riders in the champ class. The long traditional course would add more problems as stated in other posts. Short course is good for spectators, but too many riders would end up with long lines at the sections, and running time problems. It's also getting harder to find good observers who will man the sections and take the crap all day. And the champion is found by a scoring system that at best is flawed. If the top lad's are playing a game nothing like what the Sunday warrior is playing, does it matter if they change it enough to make it more spectator and rider friendly. I think the gate trial format addresses many of the concerns at top level, while allowing more riders to compete on the same course, without needing more than one class, it also get's rid of the judgment call, and allows riders to choose how difficult the section they ride will be. The gate trial format takes the pressure of the C of C on course difficulty, while giving a very level playing field for the whole entry. No one can come up with a way to keep top level trials how it used to be, and still address making it difficult enough for the very few, without scaring the majority off. The first reaction by many, myself included is it isn't trials, but after thinking about it! how close is the current championship? Gate trials is a big change, but the rider still has to ride the sections and the best man will win. I don't think it's the way to go for club trials, we enjoy just what we are doing, but I do think a change is needed for the circus at top level. Of course I'm talking ****e, but I have been around this game long enough to know swapping rules and doing half a job hasn't done any good in the past 30 yrs, and it's about time to do summat or give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 (edited) I was being more specific in the response that I gave above about Mikes comparison of sports rather than his comments on the British Championship. You know how many WTC events I go to and they are all different. Sometimes the crowds are very big and sometimes not so. I bet that the WTC in Northern Ireland and Carlisle in 2009 will have plenty of fans there, if you don't want to go thats your choice but there are plenty that think the opposite who will gladly pay for the oppourtunity to see bou or raga do there stuff over impossible for 99.99% of riders. The fact that Andy Murray can hit a ball much faster and harder than I can doesn't stop me playing tennis in the Garden with my Kids or buying them a gas gas 50 so they can ride and pretend to be Laia. Gizza if I am deluded that the BTC or WTC is not sustainable in a similar format perhaps you would be so good as to give us a brief outline of how it could be changed to entice the hordes of spectators and riders just waiting for the perfect answer? Edited October 20, 2008 by Nigel Dabster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizza5 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 Presume you were directing that at me? Trust me there are far more smarter people than me on here that attend more BTC's and WTC's with no answers!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe you are right just leave it as it is and it will survive or am I being 'Deluded' One sugestion is maybe coinciding the Youth with Adults at the same venue, then the Youths can watch and learn to see what levels they need to reach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel dabster Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 Your name is in there somewhere. Sadly the one suggestion you have made has been dismissed by John Collins in a previous thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john collins Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 Some pretty good posts on this topic of BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timp Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 John. Hopefully the format you are proposing will work but will the organisers actually make the sections easier and short enough to be riden in the time limit easily. May be an idea to have an independant adviser who will look at the sections prior to the trial to ensure they are made to the required standard you are wanting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrsunt Posted October 21, 2008 Report Share Posted October 21, 2008 I have competed in the british expert championship now for 4/5 years. With varying degrees of success! Upto the previous 2 years i had supported virtually every round. most events were very well organised, sections suitable for the majority of the 3 classes, entries tended to be at the maximum 55 with sometimes whopping 18 on the championship course. Now over the past 2 years or so, the BTC series seems to have evolved to a new level, i think personally its down to a new era of professionalism coming into the sport. At present (I'm speculating here) there are perhaps 5-6 professional riders in the uk that can almost make a living from trials. These riders are riding for a job, wanting to make it onto the world scene and hopefully secure a factory place. The only way to do this is to practice and push what you thought possible. While these few push their own bounderies in the european and world championship, they effectively take our domestic championship to new heights. The problem arises now that the standard of the championship class is getting beyond the average man who has to work 5 days a week, who doesn't have the time or resources to be on the bike as often as possible, hence the low entry numbers. A few years back, when Jarvis, Connor, Ben Hemmo, Austy, colley and phillipson could all take a win, competition was pretty fierce throught the entry. In todays championship there are probably half that number of riders pushing for the win, will Doug and Jarvis compete in any next year? To see some of the top riders in the country struggling ungracefully in that type of section is not entertaining to watch or ride (sorry lads, myself included, struggling ungracefully that is!) it really doesn't give us alot of motivation to fork out great lumps of money to travel the length of the country and to throw ourselves at or off great lumps of rock from a 4ft run up in 90seconds and then get up for work the following day. I know there is a very fine line when marking out these trials of what is possible and what isn't, credit has to be given to all the organisers for giving it a go, but it seems as though the severity of the sections is having a negative impact on the series as a whole. It is not an easy problem to solve, ultimatley there needs to be more entries; more entries will bring more spectators; more spectators will bring more publicity and more publicity can only be a good thing for the sport. How about running the adult ladies along side the adult mens and the same for the youth? Try more traditional sections where its not just all about hopping it into a rut and hitting a big step, give us sections with various lines, something the mere mortal can have a go at and get through without having to carry the bike. Do the importers and dealers reap the benefits of the closed circuit trials circus? I'm sure that putting in a few nationals, like the wainwright or white rose wouldn't hurt.... Don't most of the top riders do them anyway?? They still find a winner controversy or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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