Sense At Last

[lingo75]

'Scuse me for being dumb...

What is the gate system?

PS i use he golf analogy too!

Edited September 1, 2009 by Lingo75

[zippy]

gate system as I understand it. So may be a bit off.

There is 1 section.

At different spots in the section you are given different options. (let's just say 3)

Easy, Hard and OH ****!!

Each option is given a point value.

Easy = 1

Hard = 3

OH **** = 5

for each gate (option) you complete you are awarded the corresponding points.

For instance there are 4 spots in the section where you have the 3 gates (options).

You choose Easy, Easy, Hard, and get real crazy and do OH ****!!

You have earned 10 points for section 1.

Here is the catch: YOU MUST CLEAN THE SECTION TO BE AWARDED POINTS.

one dab and you lose it all.

Same scenario but you dab on the OH **** gate (option)

you now have a 0

but if you would have done the Hard maybe you would have cleaned it and earned a total of 8 points for section 1.

So some strategy comes into play.

And he who has the MOST points wins.

Hope that is correct and clears it up.

[wherry]

gate system as I understand it. So may be a bit off.

There is 1 section.

At different spots in the section you are given different options. (let's just say 3)

Easy, Hard and OH ****!!

Each option is given a point value.

Easy = 1

Hard = 3

OH **** = 5

for each gate (option) you complete you are awarded the corresponding points.

For instance there are 4 spots in the section where you have the 3 gates (options).

You choose Easy, Easy, Hard, and get real crazy and do OH ****!!

You have earned 10 points for section 1.

Here is the catch: YOU MUST CLEAN THE SECTION TO BE AWARDED POINTS.

one dab and you lose it all.

Same scenario but you dab on the OH **** gate (option)

you now have a 0

but if you would have done the Hard maybe you would have cleaned it and earned a total of 8 points for section 1.

So some strategy comes into play.

And he who has the MOST points wins.

Hope that is correct and clears it up.

Sounds like fun. What are the drawbacks? Why aren't we all doing this occasionally to add a bit of interest?

[ishy]

And this is were the problem lies with trials, any of the formats work properly when scored properly, but sections are observed and scored by different people, some score lenient and some score strict, a rider may get away with a stop clean when another rider has maintained forward motion yet scored three.

The original Moorland gate system is strict on scoring , but it is also very fair to all the riders, the only way a rider records a failure, are for failing to clean the whole section, crossing their own track, breaking a boundary tape , falling off or timing out, the observer has to record the total of points scored, the rest are fairly easy to call this system takes many of the judgment calls out of the mix.

Today's world rounds have many gates in them for the three classes anyway, all it would take is the gates would change color for a given value and all the riders would have the option of which and how many they feel they could take on, this would allow many more riders who are no longer eligible for youth or junior the chance to still compete at world level on sections or part of they feel more comfortable riding.

I think the two biggest deterrents for riders attending world rounds are cost and section severity, cost can't be changed easily without cutting events, but the section can be changed, what used to boost entries was any given countries top riders riding the world rounds when they were close enough for them to attend without costing an arm and a leg, now the section difficulty has closed that option down for most, I think the gate format addresses this and allows good riders the chance to compete again because the probably could take on some of the gates in each and every section.

How many UK or US riders could ride today’s youth line at world trials if they were eligible to do so?.

Edited September 1, 2009 by ishy

[bilc0]

If the WTC want a full entry again then the gate system would be a great idea.

I don't believe the WTC going back to the standard non stop system will give it that full entry there looking for,they may aswell just keep it as stop system.

So yes maybe what the FIM are dreaming up for the WTC won't be the standard non stop that we know of old.

[michaelmoore]

I'm never going to be better than a good Novice vintage trials rider so hopping/stopping/backing up is totally irrelevant to me.

However, I'll note that I can't think of any of the other aspects of motorcycle sport that I ride in (MX and roadrace) that allow a rider to stop in mid course for a rest/rethink/dither, or where if you are coming to a corner or jump at a bad angle you screech to a stop and hop the bike over to a better line. AFAIK USA style off-road hillclimbs don't let you come to a stop half way up the hill if you get aimed wrong so that you can drag your bike over to a less steep portion of the hill and then continue on.

Of course, in MX and RR you've got other people on the course at the same time and you don't want to get in their way, and stopping for a rethink is just going to lose you places.

But the whole idea is you keep moving forward. You have to think a corner or two ahead because your exit from corner A may have a big impact on what you are then able to accomplish in corners B and C. No-stop trials works the same way. You may give up a long dab (slow exit speed on a MX/RR corner) in order to put yourself in a better position for the next obstacle (corner) and so better your score overall.

Why should trials be the odd-person out in motorcycle sport?

I think that being able to do all the trick hopping and stuff makes you better able to balance when going slow in a non-stop trial. My attempts at practicing balancing at a standstill on my Sherpa T were all done to try and improve my balance overall, not because I expected that I'd be able to come to a stop in a section.

I suspect that if I were thinking of starting trials today and saw nothing but stop/trick riding sections I'd say "wow, those guys are sure skilled but there's no way I'm going to try anything like that, it looks too difficult and/or dangerous."

I might look at a lesser obstacle and think that I could definitely drag the bike up it so maybe I'd have a chance to ride it with some footing. I can't drag a bike up a 5' step so I'm sure not about to try and ride up it. Dragging may be doable, needing a winch and crane, not so much.

cheers,

Michael

[dgshannon]

One of the complaints about Gate Trials is the loss of all points, due to a single dab. The complaint is that is causes people not to try something tough, for fear of losing all points.

After riding Gate Trials under a NUMBER of different formats, we finally arrived at an approach that has worked great, the last several times we have used it. One benefit is that you can use standard 1,2,3,5 point scorecards. Some methods require a notepad, and a calculator, with all their complex kajillion point scoring systems.

For an idea on how we do it, go to our website: www.TexasTrials.com

Look part way down the right side of the page, and you will see the "Outlaw Gate Trial" logo. Below that, you will see the link called "What is an Outlaw Trials?" Click on it for detailed rules on running this type of event.

When we do these events, we typically don't layout sections in advance. When the group shows up for the event, we divide up into teams (typically 6). Each team is allowed 60 to 90 minutes, to go out and layout one section. Fairly quickly then, we have 6 sections, all of different styles, and difficulty levels. The great thing is that with gates, you don't have to try anything you don't want to, just in case a team went over the top in laying out their section. We have found that this is a great way to pass on the skills of laying out a good section, to our young or inexperienced riders. We were getting to where nobody would be able to put on an event, after all our old guys died off!

As far as judges, we usually don't have any. Instead, we will ride in a group, or groups, and score each other. Again, builds the skills and ability of the young, or new, riders. Both on scoring, and how to approach walking, and eyeing a section.

Give it a shot, and I think you will have a great time. We find it to be a very laid back way of having fun, and being more social in the effort of putting on a trial.

- Darrell

Edited September 1, 2009 by DGShannon

[ishy]

One of the complaints about Gate Trials is the loss of all points, due to a single dab. The complaint is that is causes people not to try something tough, for fear of losing all points.

- Darrell

As I stated in a earlier post, I don't think the gate trial would fly at club level. for that simple reason you state, people now think any trial that you get more than 20 points in is way too hard.

But the same sytem could solve many of the world championship problems because of the ability to choose an easier line option,

cut out many of the judgment calls and give more riders a shot at the section, do you think Bou and Raga will be sticking to a few easier gates because they don't want to loose that dab, I think they will push the game

just as now.

[nigel dabster]

As I stated in a earlier post, I don't think the gate trial would fly at club level. for that simple reason you state, people now think any trial that you get more than 20 points in is way too hard.

But the same sytem could solve many of the world championship problems because of the ability to choose an easier line option,

cut out many of the judgment calls and give more riders a shot at the section, do you think Bou and Raga will be sticking to a few easier gates because they don't want to loose that dab, I think they will push the game

just as now.

Are gate trials stop or no stop?

[ishy]

Are gate trials stop or no stop?

Original gate rules allow you to stop, hop, back up use any skill you have to get through the section, but it most be clean.

[1st gear steve]

I have followed this debate for a while now & everyone who is involved in trials at any level has there opinion.

This debate seems to have split in 2 - one for club level & one at National / International.

For local events (speaking as a clerk of the course), the ability spectrum is massive & growing all the time - so unless you run totally seperate trials, different routes in each section are very importatant to ensure you get your event supported by riders each time, with regards to the rules - depending on how you plot the sections will dictate how most riders will ride a section. I agree that mutiple routes can be confusing - we are about to trial a new system @ our 2 day this weekend (Middlebrough DMC), where we give even more options, but by giving clear instructions / Colourcoding & briefing the observers i believe it can successful, Please come this weekend, ride, spectate, observe & give your feedback - the more aspects we get the better we can make it.

On the international front - here is my take on the whole thing......

Definately go back to no stop - Bou & Raga, are the best in the world & still will be the best in the world, regardless of rules, however the sections will be less intimidating / dangerous & will ultimatly attract more entries to the premier class. This alone however will not rescue the championship, what i would propose is ......

Still have dual sections, currently 3 routes, but invite the 'local' nations National riders to take part on the middle route (regardless of whether they are eligable for any of the championships), as a 'wild' card. The oportunity of riding in such a large event, will have them queing for an entry - This would swell the numbers in each country a lot. Also what about introducing a 'veterans' championship (over 40's), similar to Moto-X over a shorter series, maybe 4 or 5 rounds, agin over one of the easier routes.

What do you think?

[martin belair]

Lots of great ideas here. Here are a few of mine. (hi Tim)

World Championship: it does not matter what rules are used because the sections have to be set so hard to get points from the top riders that it will limit the number willing to attempt.

Rules:no stop puts the pressure on the observer to make the BIG 5 call for loss of forward motion. It's the call that no one wants to make.

TIME Limit in the section is the best way to keep the riders moving. It moves the BIG 5 call to the exit gates. FIM needs to control this with electronic start and end gate timers. Makes observing easier.

Keeping young riders in the sport: It's Easy.... money. Once a rider has reached the WC level he has most likely drained his family, friends and sponsors of money. A young man at that age sees his peers begining to earn money and yet he is still a trials bum with no income.

The best way to get points from the top riders is to make them run 15 PSI in the rear tire!

Edited September 2, 2009 by Martin Belair

[trialsnutterman]

The best way to get points from the top riders is to make them run 15 PSI in the rear tire!

True, I'm surprised they haven't brought in a tougher ruling over the tyre design, it has got to be the easiest and most effective method of lessening the severity of the sections. Would it be good for the newcomers I don't know, it may put them off slightly if it was taken to a extreme as a lot of the fun when I first started was in the wow this bike has just got me up that slippy bank it will go anywhere feeling.

[atomant]

I think the gate system for the WTC is the way to go - It would be very very exciting to watch for sure and would require nounce not just skill to win. Absolutely love the idea and I hope they drop the no-stop thing and go with the Gate system for WTC !

Club trials should be left to the club to decide what is best for the punters it serves.

Edited September 4, 2009 by AtomAnt

[wherry]

I think the gate system for the WTC is the way to go - It would be very very exciting to watch for sure and would require nounce not just skill to win. Absolutely love the idea and I hope they drop the no-stop thing and go with the Gate system for WTC !

Club trials should be left to the club to decide what is best for the punters it serves.

Yup. I can't disagree with any of that, Atom.