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Should there be another class in Trial GP?

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On 12/4/2019 at 11:43 AM, faussy said:

Without proper regulation, any sport becomes a runaway train, with less and less teams and riders able to compete at the top level. Many sports, including F1 have introduced numerous restrictions over the years to hold it back and make it possible for the small teams to compete and its still a 1 horse race! Trials has had none for the last 50 years, its no wonder its become elitist. [...]

I agree. It should be ensured that the bikes absolutely correspond to the series standard in the core areas (engine, transmission, Carburettor, Injection system, front- and rear suspension). For training they can use what they want, but during the GP they should use their Series bikes, observed and transported by FIM.

 

On 12/4/2019 at 11:43 AM, faussy said:

When national champions cant compete at the top level there is something fundamentally wrong

I'm big fan of Pat Smage. He could compete in the top level but he preferred to stay in the USA and not to move to Spain and train with the top guys (what is kind of necessary).

Canario

Edited by Canario

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It was posted on here earlier that the bikes must not be 'one offs' well I have never heard that before and I bet you can't buy any of the world class bikes.

Why not limit the G.P riders to only using production bikes, that would mean all the riders turn up at an event and use a bike from the nearest distributor, straight away you have slashed the costs of competing as the bikes would then be sold on as 'ex demo !'

 

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In theory that would be a great idea. But would it limit progress in next years designs. Maybe the stock bike, but bring rear shock, carb and CDI box?

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I think I heard that in the 'old days ' riders would travel to an event with their own barrel / piston to convert a standard bike to 'works spec' BUT surely compared to even 10 years ago modern bikes are just so perfect why not have the added cudos of competing and winning on a 'box standard' bike that any joe public can then go and buy.

Do we really need these bikes to progress any further, if a developement programme needs world round competition to push it forward then the targets are already too high. 

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11 hours ago, lineaway said:

In theory that would be a great idea. But would it limit progress in next years designs. [...]

Looking back on to the designs of most manufacturers (TRS, Beta, GasGas) over the past years, I do not see so much progress at all. The technique of most components is decades old, but with some tuning you can get out some additional percentage points. But these modifications are difficult to realize by small teams.

The biggest progress came from Vertigo and they did this "from scratch".

11 hours ago, lineaway said:

Maybe the stock bike, but bring rear shock, carb and CDI box?

I would prefer to stick with the stock bike with stock components.

On the other hand side: Whether or not a rider makes it to the top depends more on the support and willingness to travel of the parents than on the bike.

Canario

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 Vertigo is different, nothing on that bike does anything better than the other brands. TRS is the one that has made the most progress. A better bike, and the numbers sold worldwide proves it. 

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I don't know what anyone could possibly find objectionable about what the pros on 2t bikes do to race prep their bikes: they generally run high comp heads, which you can all go buy if you want. They all tend to run a Trun float bowl, which if you really wanted you could track down, but since most of you won't spend a lot of time on the back wheel, there's probably not much point. You can go buy a Reiger hydrostop shock, or even buy a bike that comes with one (TRS Gold). You can also go buy the top level Tech forks they almost all run.

Other than that... what do you think they're doing to their bikes other than ADDING weight in the form of heavier axles to meet FIM weight requirements?

The bikes they run aren't one-offs by any stretch.

Edited by heffergm

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Ho no, Heffergm, you just deflated my ballon ! I was certain I was as good as Bou, but he's riding a better bike.

Guy

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1 hour ago, lineaway said:

 Vertigo is different, nothing on that bike does anything better than the other brands. TRS is the one that has made the most progress. A better bike, and the numbers sold worldwide proves it. 

Vertigo has fuel injection and a central tank.

From what I have seen in regard to engine and gearbox, a TRS is a GasGas with better build quality. But do you see a technical progress from 2015 to today?

Canario

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16 minutes ago, guy53 said:

Ho no, Heffergm, you just deflated my ballon ! I was certain I was as good as Bou, but he's riding a better bike.

Guy

Give me Bous bike and I am the new world champion 2020. ?

Canario

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20 minutes ago, Canario said:

Vertigo has fuel injection and a central tank.

From what I have seen in regard to engine and gearbox, a TRS is a GasGas with better build quality. But do you see a technical progress from 2015 to today?

Canario

Yeah, I agree they look the part. But, I will stick to the old fashioned CDI bikes with a carb. Just as you like the Vertigo, I loved the Ossa but am sure glad I never owned one.

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On 12/24/2019 at 1:35 AM, collyolly said:

I think I heard that in the 'old days ' riders would travel to an event with their own barrel / piston to convert a standard bike to 'works spec' BUT surely compared to even 10 years ago modern bikes are just so perfect why not have the added cudos of competing and winning on a 'box standard' bike that any joe public can then go and buy.

Do we really need these bikes to progress any further, if a developement programme needs world round competition to push it forward then the targets are already too high. 

If we had enough riders I would suggest more of a stock bike class, kind of like Trial 2, where the riders are allowed to only complete on stock bikes with minor alterations like change bars, pegs, tires type of thing. 

 

I really think letting the GP riders have there custom works bikes is best for continued bike development and would then let the stock bike class bikes get better each year. 

 

My 2 cents. 

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On 12/24/2019 at 1:55 PM, heffergm said:

I don't know what anyone could possibly find objectionable about what the pros on 2t bikes do to race prep their bikes: they generally run high comp heads, which you can all go buy if you want. They all tend to run a Trun float bowl, which if you really wanted you could track down, but since most of you won't spend a lot of time on the back wheel, there's probably not much point. You can go buy a Reiger hydrostop shock, or even buy a bike that comes with one (TRS Gold). You can also go buy the top level Tech forks they almost all run.

Other than that... what do you think they're doing to their bikes other than ADDING weight in the form of heavier axles to meet FIM weight requirements?

The bikes they run aren't one-offs by any stretch.

I absolutely agree, that the stock bikes are already on a top level. Further assuming it is 98% up to the driver whether or not he can make the 2.50 meter step, we are talking about the last 2%, which can make the difference.

In this regard I think about the usual measures for the two-stroke engine:

  • Modifying the intake diaphragm
  • Timing (inlet/outlet)
  • Treatment of overflow channels and outlet
  • Machining of crankshaft and piston
  • Fine adjustment of the exhaust (cone)
  • Extensive testing and fine tuning

"Easy" to do for the top teams, difficult for small teams.

Canario

 

 

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On 12/15/2019 at 2:12 PM, heffergm said:

I think the bike has zero to do with any of this. Sure, Honda can throw more money at the bike, but if the bike were the deciding factor Fuji would be on the podium every round. We all know trials is 95% rider. Bou trains hard to stay where he is. So does Fajardo of late, and look at the resurgence he's had.

The minimum weight limit is constantly trotted out as some sort of Honda conspiracy. Well, here are some other things prohibited by the rules, and I submit that if they weren't in here, it doesn't take much imagination to envision what Honda might be able to do that none of the other manufacturers could without going bankrupt.

----------------------------

- no supercharging
- no telemetry
- the use of titanium in the construction of the frame, the front forks, the handlebars,
the swinging arms, the wheel- and swinging arm-spindles is forbidden.
- no CF for handlebars or rims
- no ceramics
- electronically controlled throttle valves are forbidden
- the overall width of the tyre when fitted must not exceed 115 mm (plus some other tread block spacing, etc rules). They also can't be one-offs, they have to be available for sale to the public.
- some rules around permitted fuels, octane, etc.

-------------------------

It is a honda conspiracy as it is set higher thatn the Gas Gas trs lightweight set up.

More importantly from its instigation it has never been properly enforced or monitored.

Strange you mention spindles as ti was banned but honda/montesa have continued its use for years.

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On 12/24/2019 at 12:45 PM, lineaway said:

 Vertigo is different, nothing on that bike does anything better than the other brands. TRS is the one that has made the most progress. A better bike, and the numbers sold worldwide proves it. 

what progress has trs made since the 07 bike, their first?

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