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It doesn't have much bearing on what we've been discussing but it does show that these engines have a very short overlap (just 7° in your case). But thanks for posting it. I'm guessing the cam profiles changed slightly over the years/models. These are the figures from my 2022 301RR... 14° of overlap in this case.

Does this have any relevance to anyone’s data: Intake valve opens 6 degrees before TDC Intake valve closes 27 degrees after BDC Exhaust valve opens 30 degrees before BDC Exhaust valve closes 1 degree after TDC

Hi Chris These are really good oscilloscope captures you have recorded here and will certainly benefit people when they have an ignition-related problem. I myself am also a little surprised at how it goes from wasted spark to non-wasted spark in such a short time horizon - I would not have believed this if it were not for your fine evidence here. I also find your note regarding an injection timing in the combustion stroke just after TDC a bit strange. But I can also confirm that this matches my captures of injection timing in the compression stroke TDC and which occurs 25 degrees after TDC. This is very important evidence of when and how the ignition system works on a Honda Montesa 4RT and other motorcycles / scooters with similar battery-less systems. It seems that there are quite a few secrets that need to be discovered. Just keep up the good work. Regards Honda Freak

It appears to be that the 4rt was the first bike with batteryless fuel injection and the test bed for everything else. With regards to your tests and findings, why is the high tick over so critical for the starting procedure?

These diagrams are drawings I did to explain a fault on my 2008. They are not going to be relevant to other years and configurations so be careful. All the Beta owners manuals including wiring diagrams from 2006 and up are available on-line from the US, UK importers. Anything earlier is tough to find as it will have to be scanned from written owners manuals.

The standard modification is to change to a Techno kick start shaft. Then you can bolt up an Evo lever.

Thank you for all of your efforts with proving this, a very interesting read. It reminds me of a non starting 6cyl BMW diesel in a Range Rover I was asked to repair. It ran Bosch common rail injection. The car would crank, fire a few times, then die. Never any more than a few firing events. What I found was that the engine ecu could not make use of the camshaft position sensor to synchronise the crank and cam to decide when to inject fuel. In my training I was told that the system would not start to inject until the fuel rail pressure sensor was above a certain threshold. I proved this not to be the case with my 4 channel Pico. What actually happened is that the engine ecu would allow each injector to inject 3 times - Basically to give the engine a quicker go at starting. This allowed a few firing events, but it would never start because the analogue to digital converter had failed in the ecu for the cam sensor so it would not synchronise and allow it to start. The ecu was sent off for repair and the car was fine after. Sorry for the long, slightly off topic post, but like you guys I'm fascinated by what actually goes on, and how it all works. And another vote for the Picoscope and WPS500 - expensive, but VERY good.

Ok, some interesting findings for those watching… For info, in the following oscilloscope traces, the bottom (yellow) trace shows the pulse trigger coil. A burst of 9 short pulses occurs once every revolution of the crankshaft. Note, all traces are referenced to +12v power. That’s because the ignition coil and fuel injector are switched by the ECU applying a ground. I have confirmed that full +12v power is available within one revolution of the crank. Each trace covers a one second period but some are offset by differing amounts to get a better view. 1. My first test was to remove the spark plug and kick the engine over. This trace closely matches the one above posted by Honda Freak. The ignition pulses (in blue) are virtually identical to his with the first two sparks about 83mS apart (720rpm) and the next about 120mS (500rpm) later, in my example. This confirms Honda Freak’s finding that the engine sparks once per revolution of the crank - wasted spark ignition. And yes, you only get three sparks total and only one or two of them will be on the correct stroke (and that’s with the plug removed). Also note, the fuel injector initially fires two shots (once per crank revolution) and then once every 2nd rotation after that. 2. Kick start and run. This is where it gets interesting. On the left, you can see the initial fuel injector pulse followed by the first spark. The engine starts on that first spark as evidenced by the increase in magnitude and frequency of the trigger pulses. The spark plug continues to fire every crank revolution. The injector is firing every 2nd revolution. However, it appears from the first spark (when I believe the engine fired) that fuel is injected just 10mS after the spark which would be just after TDC on the power stroke when the intake valve is closed. But then a strange thing happens… About 8 revolutions after starting (about halfway across the above trace), the fuel injector timing skips a complete revolution and then, after next spark, the ignition timing changes to non-wasted spark or “normal” four stroke running. Fuel injection is now occurring on the intake stroke (halfway between spark events). I ran this test numerous times with the same result. Somehow, it always started on that first spark event, never the second. The injection timing had to correct itself every time and ECU dropped the unwanted spark events on the next cycle. I’m guessing that if the engine started on the 2nd spark (due to crank position), the fuel injection would not need to correct itself and the ECU would just drop the unwanted sparks. 3. I tested a start, shutdown, followed by a rapid re-start. The above sequence was repeated each time. The ECU does not appear to remember where it’s timing was previously. 4. Wide Open Throttle cranking. On my bike at least, holding the throttle open kills both the spark and fuel injection. This trace has the same conditions as the first one except the throttle is held wide open. Even half throttle will kill it. I can’t explain why doing this helps with a bad start but maybe it just clears out excess fuel. It doesn’t appear to reset anything - the ECU has already lost power. 5. ECU "Power Relay" (engine running signal). This signal is used to turn on the power relay to supply 12v power to the headlight. I can confirm that signal is pulled low (turning on the relay) at the same time as the fuel injector pulse is corrected. This occurs about 500mS after starting. Green trace below… Anyway, I hope you’ve enjoyed my ramblings. Honda Freak and I were both right - the 4RT starts out with wasted spark ignition and then reverts to normal 4 stroke ignition about half a second (10 to 12 crank revolutions) later. And I tend to agree with sportsawyer that it is all timed off the MAP sensor pulses.

The only setting I have for the pre TXT PRO motors is 2.7mm before BTDC.

Unfortunately Ninja, the bottom has fallen out of the trials bike market at present. Not only modern ,but twin shocks as well. Also Pre 65 which were usually bomb proof. I’d keep hold of it until the market bucks up. Can you send some images of the bike. I’ve had a few 199 b’s, lovely bikes . What are the last four numbers of the frame number , it’ll tell us if it was a late one ,which may help in a sale for you. Regards Dave. ( you can send via a message if your not comfortable putting it on here ).

Thanks Tr1AL, the stator has slotted openings that will have an Allen bolt into fixed bolt holes in the inner casing. In my experience they are usually bolted mid slot, but have timing marks. There are no visible marks on the stator or inner casing. If I can get the degrees BTDC I can time it myself. But thanks.

Usually they have fixed settings. The stator and the pickup up mounting holes have holes they are not slotted but a previous owner could have filed them to give some movement for their own modifications , some people love to fiddle of course.

Does anyone have an image of timing marks and settings on a 1998/99 TX 250, or ways to set the timing. I’m rebuilding an engine for a friend and it came to me in a box so I’ve no way to determine where it was previously set. Thanks

@Nigel_Mercer https://youtu.be/MtgZ-vEmIw4?si=Hue5PZ3ZEVzoz NB As per video "The new LOW FRICTION bearings.".

Hi all As anyone who has owned an early Beta knows (and has scars to prove it) the kickstart is very ordinary. Has anyone drilled and tapped the kickstart shart and fitted a later model kickstart?

I’ve got a montesa 300rr 2016 I’ve bought an apico clutch kit but in the kit there’s 4 paper plates and 2 cork where as on the clutch I took off there’s 2 paper plates and 4 cork, any help is appreciated

I find it amazing too. I believe the impetus for Honda to create batteryless fuel injection was the millions of small motor scooters in countries like Vietnam and Thailand. There was a need to reduce air pollution and that would require fuel injection to replace carburettors. Whilst these scooters had batteries fitted when new, the owners are often too poor to afford a replacement battery down the track. Hence the need for batteryless fuel injection. From there, it made it's way into trials bikes. Honda did an impressive job. Both of my 4RTs have been excellent starters. They can sit for a couple of months yet still start first kick (no more than two).

Le remplacement des joints d'amortisseur/de fourche Paioli implique le démontage des tubes de fourche, le retrait des anciens joints et l'installation de nouveaux joints (généralement de 35 mm ou 38 mm) à l'aide d'un outil d'insertion. Cette opération nécessite de retirer le bouchon supérieur, de vidanger l'huile, de retirer la vis inférieure et de séparer les tubes par un mouvement de glissement. Les étapes clés comprennent le nettoyage des composants, la lubrification des nouveaux joints et le respect de leur orientation correcte.

This is a fascinating read, mostly beyond my understanding but it somewhat makes sense. It baffles me how all this was conceived in the first place. Was it by clever men in sheds smoking a pipe jotting things down or was it all computer simulations? Even if it was computer simulations, getting it to work in real world trials senarios completely reliable and virtually unchanged for 20 odd years is something else. Carry on with the good work

samsbikes@yahoo.co.uk hi is it possible to send me a copy of the KScan diagnostic software it would be much appreciated thanks and all the best Darren,I'm willing to pay for it thank again Darren

Hi, is it possible to send me a copy of the KScan diagnostic software,it would be much appreciated if you can.thanks and all the best Darren my email is samsbikes@yahoo.co.uk I'm willing to pay for it thank again Darren

Hi, is it possible for you to send me a copy of the KScan diagnostic software it would be much appreciated if you can thanks and all the best Darren, my email is samsbikes@yahoo.co.uk

Good evening Honda Freak. I looked up that WPS500X pressure transducer. Very nice bit of kit but not cheap. I am a bit surprised that you did your test at Wide Open Throttle. I understand why, but I was under the impression that at WOT, the bike wouldn't fire because the ignition and fuel were shut off. Maybe it just cuts off the fuel injector and adds the extra spark as you said. I will include that in my testing. I was unable to find a free copy of those SAE papers but I have read some of it before. But thank you for the information. Anyway, I am creating a schedule of oscilloscope tests to perform once the weather cools off... 1. Cold kick cranking. Spark plug removed. Timebase to capture the first few rotations (20mS/div). This is to hopefully duplicate your capture. 2. Cold crank and start. Timebase to capture 10 to 20 seconds (2S/div). Then zoom in to inspect the first few revolutions compared to the last few. Locate any transition from wasted spark to normal running. 3. Run, shutdown, and immediately restart. Inspect first few cycles to see if it is wasted spark or not. 4. Wide Open Throttle cranking. Inspect for ignition and/or fuel injection cut-off. 5. If there is a transition from wasted spark to normal running, monitor the ECU "Power Relay" (engine running signal) to see if that aligns with the change. That is the Yellow/Green wire that turns on the headlight relay about half a second after starting. I know many people are asking "why" but like you, I'm just curious. And it wouldn't hurt to have some baseline data if the bike ever plays up.

Hi I have a question for the guru's out there. I have a 2010 TXT Pro 250. Lest year I noticed that there was fuel in the gearbox oil when I changed it. That precipitated a complete engine rebuild. Glad I did it because it was pretty worn. I had only had the bike a few months and bought it to get into trials (a decision I dont regret for one minute ) I bought literally every seal and bearing, clutch, top end, crank was rebuilt as well. When it came to fitting the main bearings I took them out of the box (The new style XiU-rdiOnes) they were so tight that it was impossible to rotate them. IN other words, you could not rotate the inner of the bearing at all. Even with significant force. I was told that they are quite tight, but this seemed insane. Anyway, went ahead with fitting, cases heated, bearings frozen. Tough to get them in, but they were seated. Bolted the cases up and the crank was literally solid. I have rebuilt many many engines over the years and I have never seen a set of bearings this tight. The crank could only be rotated by popping a high torque cordless drill onto it. After a few minutes of this, I could now rotate the crank (just) by hand. This really didnt seem right to me. Anyway, I was assured by some that this is normal for these motors. It started up fine and ran well. However, there was a constant loud whirring noise which was not there before. It did get slightly less, but has not gone away. After a few rides I noticed that it is starting to use gearbox oil, but it doesnt smoke. So I popped off the flywheel cover and its full of oil. So the left side seal/bearing is failing obviously. So it all has to come apart again and get some more fresh mains and seals. My main question here is about those bearings. Are they really meant to be that tight? I cannot believe that they should be that tight. Surely this will generate massive heat and possibly destroy the seal and the o-rings in the bearing? I have never come across a main bearing that cannot be rotated by hand (unless it is seized) brand new out of the box. Makes me think that I was supplied a bad set of mains? Thoughts anyone? Nigel

Hi guys doing some research before attempting to change the crank seal on my 2011 raga 280.. any how to videos or advice appreciated..! thanks for any info..!