dadof2

I always got the feeling DL never totally settled on the 4T and may have had at least another WTC but for working on 4T development. Nice to see JD on the Vertigo, should clearly benchmark it against other bikes and its a fair bet that it will be competitive at WTC. Although its new there is nothing individually new on the vertigo, EFI has is on the Ossa and has not shown a competitive advantage over carburated 2ts. The trellis frame has been tried in other branches of 2 wheel sport but generally its performance has been inferior to alloy beam frames. DL says it gives increased rigidity, but when Jeff Smiths brazed steel (chrome moly?) frame was replaced with lighter more rigid titanium it did not perform as well. If someone wanted to improve (as in more capable at WTC) on the presently most competitive bikes what should they change?

Hi Since you posted M10 x 1.25 I have just been out and checked my fitting with a thread gauge, it is definitely 1.0 pitch and it also fits 2012 Beta callipers. The union threads may not he the same as the banjo bolt threads. it is not uncommon to find the banjo threads are metric and the union threads BSP or BSPT.

Steve Earl wrote / asked "The gearbox bearings, I understand that the split needle rollers are the culprits for failure, So is it a particular one that gives up? What exactly causes them to give up? Is there a way of finding heavier duty or better quality replacements?" For about 15 years a portion of my work was design of machine tools. These were generally expected to run 20 to 22 hours a day for a minimum of 5 days a week, We simply would not have used a split cage needle roller bearing because failure was near certain to occur much earlier than a bearing with a one piece cage or a crowded bearing. Any bearing manufacturer will tell you this. This split cage type of bearing is very sensitive to wear or variance from ideal lubrication. With slight wear, poor lubrication or different loading at different points along the bearing, the rollers start to slew and their axis of rotation is no longer parallel to the axis of the "races" which enclose them. This causes skidding, high localised loads and the situation goes from bad to worse. Heavy duty - increasing the roller diameter will likely worsen the situation. The failures are unlikely to be a material quality problem. The cost of improving the bearing by finer tolerance would probably be prohibitive and may not work.

"to post or not to post, that is the question?" (slight deviation from the original) And here is a Shakespeare quote he probably would have uttered regarding both GG Pro and Ossa gearboxes "a curse on both your houses" And to correct a misquote by ND, I wrote "several", ND misquotes this as "a couple". In this case my use of several referred to at least 4, probably 5, not 2 A large proportion of the Pro gearbox failures cannot realistically be attributed to rider misuse. The Pro gearboxes have failed in the hands of riders who have ridden many other makes over many years and other than the pro they never had a single gearbox failure. It is clear from 249s interview that the GG and Ossa gearbox designer favours part number and weight reduction over longevity and that is what he possibly has to do to make the bike competitive at the highest level. Clearly some riders like or at least satisfied with this, but there are also a large number who would like to return to TY 250 monoshock levels of reliability.

#40 I can to a considerable extent sympathise with your point of view. On my local news tonight there have been 2 cases of causing death by dangerous driving and the sentences were 2 and 5 years, I would have liked to see 10 at least. Yes our legal system has faults but on balance I think it is better leaving punishment to them rather than via an internet campaign. ​There are also some aspects of the CE case that do not look quite right, perhaps the commission that is reviewing the case will shed more light on this and may even overturn the original verdict. I wonder what our our American posters think of the protests there against a couple or recent legal decisions, rather than internet petitions they seem to favour riots and looting electrical goods, Is stealing a TV a legitimate form of protest?

I am near certain but not 100% that the banjo bolt thread will be M10 x 1.0mm. I have a grease fitting with that thread for pumping out the pistons and I have done 2000 / 2001 AJP callipers with it.

If you have a trials bike already and are thinking of doing enduro you should be able to get round the course OK to see what its like, but if you try to go fast you will give both the engine and suspension more punishment than is good for them. Trials bikes generally can't do long sandy or muddy hills anywhere near as good as an enduro or MX bike.

Take the plug out, put it in the lead and position it to make sure the spark can earth. Turn the fuel tap off, put the bike in second or third gear and push it about until vapour stops coming out of the plug hole. Clean the plug, put it back in and try to start bike as normal.

Nigel you are contradicting yourself again #167 - you said lets get back to vertigo, now you are rambling on about Sherco. let him who is without sin cast the first stone? And before you call my posts rubbish you would be well advised to drive a 3L V6 cologne built Granada Ghia with a V6 petrol engined Jaguar in day to day driving conditions.

"Are serious about a wealth of knowledge from DO2? Just because anyone is free to say what they want, doesnt mean its fact. He lost me on another thread where he declared the Bultaco and the TY350 are the best trials engines......yikes! What decade are we in now?" Some people clearly need to learn to read properly, the above is not what I wrote which was 1979 325 Bultaco and last of the TY250 air cooled monoshock Yams are my favourite engines A beck is the northern English term for a small river. The Pro gearbox is almost certainly the most unreliable ever fitted to a trials bike (and probably any motorcycle), since the 1970s anyway.

Nigel #162. What untrue rubbish have I said about something we have not seen?

I do not know if the cologne would do 150k. It had done 105k when I sold it and was still going strong at 125k. Whether or not it reached 150k it would be rebuildable at modest cost. Since someone brought up Audi I will mention my neigbours (until 2 years ago) experience of Audi. Over about 6 to 7 years my neighbours had 4 Audis, a couple of large saloons, followed by a TT, then a large Auto estate. The TT was the only one that had something serious go wrong but it was fixed under warranty. My neighbours were reasonably well off, her a teacher and him a partner in a building firm and they did not even bother going to the garage. If anything was needed a man came with a courtesy car and took theirs away when needed. Vorsprung durch technik (progress through / by technology) as they say. Well the cost of this technological progress was eye watering. The cost of servicing and depreciation per year would be easily enough to buy and run 2 Repsol 4rts. I am hardly a pauper but even so I find the cologne + the RTs alternative very attractive compared to the Audi alternative. In one of my previous posts I said something like present vehicle, I meant most recent modern vehicle, because I gave up driving modern vehicles a could of years ago and now only have classics. Bit of a ramble but anything on Vertigo until prices are announced and bikes are available will be mostly speculation anyway.

I have deliberately backed off this topic for a while to let it cool a bit and this is almost certainly my last post on it. I ask that those on both sides of the argument, in particular those opposing my views look back at my previous posts and you will realise there is actually quite a bit about GG which I like. In the part of UK where I ride both in events and practice the sections are predominantly slippery becks (I have actually known the odd trial to be nothing else) with a lot protruding rocks. This means when the bike goes down it is often sudden and hard. This is a lot more punishing for the bikes than trials on different terrain that I have seen in other parts of the country. In the days of the Yamaha TY monoshocks there was hardly a rider that did not smash at least one ignition flywheel case. It is this same terrain that has probably brought about the gearshift failures (not kickstart or bearing failures) on the pro engine. The big difference between the TY and the Pro is the consequences of the damage. A broken flywheel cover did not put you out of the event and only cost about £25 to replace (Both JS and NB did sand cast aluminium replacements). The shifter breakage on a Pro on the other hand usually brings the days riding to an end and can easily mean a bill of £several hundred. I suspect the Sherco gear shift return spring may be the next issue to be revealed by slippery becks. I know of a few that have failed, so far only the springs needing replacement but sooner or later some unfortunate is going to have a bit of spring go between the primary drive gears. I will also add that I am a qualified quality assurance auditor (LRQA ISO 9001) and as a result or advice I have recently given, a manufacturer of domestic whitegoods (sales or 350,000 units per year) is going to make a minor design change to improve reliability and safety.

Alyrian, My apologies for a somewhat sarcastic reply in #11. If you had been a regular on the forum you would realise why and this is the reason andy made #3 also. There are too many variables to have an all round best engine, different ones have different advantages. My favourite engines are 1979 Bultaco 325 and the Yamaha TY 250 engines fitted to the last of the air cooled monoshocks.

Thank you for another excellent interview, previously I thought Piebernat had a greater input into the detail design.

http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/topic/47625-metal-in-the-gearbox-oil-txt-250-2009/ http://www.trialscentral.com/forums/topic/52377-gas-gas-gearbox-bearings/ See the above posts, 7 2012s affected. I know whatever I post will probably be treated with derision and insults so I will keep it brief. Although some Pros may only have had average / typical trial bike problems, since its inception the Pro gearbox has had a greatly disproportionate number of failures. There is as yet no significant longer term evidence that this problem has been cured and it is probable that without a substantial redesign it won’t be. As for Asian women, well I’d be surprised if many would kick Klassy Myleene out of bed, but there again perhaps some’s interest in trials is not reliability, but rather men in tight lycra. Edit Nigel I am pretty certain it was you who started bringing DL into this, not me.

Softening the engine, slowing the throttle will help but there is more to it than that. Bikes like Beta 200, Yam Ty250R, yam, TYZ, Yam engined Scorpa are sort of slow reacting and forgiving, they tend to do the work for the rider, but I don't think any of those engines or chassis won a WTC round but they were or are very successful at lower levels. Gassers (of whatever era) on the other hand are much more WTC focussed in their characteristics, they are more responsive but this responsiveness needs to be matched by the rider. I have not ridden regularly this year but I can get on an old 4rt and get on fine in clubman beck sections. If I do the same on a 300 gasser the bike gets away from me and I am soon tired. From what you said about their forward position putting back the bars should help with grip. I can't remember if its been mentioned in an earlier post of if your bike has one, but if it has what position is the ignition map switch in. Any chance your engine could have been modified to make it sharper. Is fork oil level correct and is rear damper Ok and linkages well greased. Has previous owner set bike up so its bouncy

Dabster you can write in as big a letters as you like but what you say is still wrong. In fact its wrong twice over.

Best trials engine? depends on how long the piece of string you want to pull with it it.

Neither have I ever told anyone what bike they should ride. I can tell you one place you won't find Dabsters boss - the diplomatic service. I only posted Ched Evans debate as an example of how views can be very polarised on the internet and result in considerable acrimony but since Dabster has raised it again I will. Ched Evans (prior to a few weeks ago I had never heard of him and I have virtually no interest in football) was convicted and sentenced. He was the freed and the legal system chose not to impose restrictions on his return to former employment. His former employers looked like they were intending to re employ him. Then up springs a very vociferous campaign against this and it looks likely he will not return to his former employment (will probably get lucrative contract with foreign club). I question whether this lynch mob mentality has any any place in a civilised society. No telling where it will end end if campaign groups effectively add to the sentence imposed by law. For example, if Brake (the road safety charity) had their way there would be no more youth trials or youth MX.

Thank you B40rt#58. I do not know Gary Mac but I do know other higher level GG riders who change their bikes frequently. I presume the higher level riders of other makes do the same also. That is one of the reasons why the choice Dougie or any of the top line riders is not a good guide as to what a lower level rider should choose if particularly if he wishes to keep it for some time and has to pay for his own maintenance. I don’t think I know anything AG “Brownie” does not. I do know what some riders have said and the fact that AG no longer has GG on his website will have caused others to draw the same conclusion I have. In response to Nigel drawing our attention to AG being Sherco dealer of the year I know of several riders who bought Shercos off AG which helped put him in that position. All had previous bad experiences of GG reliability and this was a major factor in their decision to choose Sherco over GG when buying from AG. Although I have not spoken to Al the spanner for some time I have referred GG owners to him for GG gearbox and other repairs and you will find evidence of this on some of my previous posts. All makes have problems and as most of you know my opinion is that many of the problems stem from weight reduction. I actually quite admire the recent models of GG, they have an attractive functional simplicity about them, they are purposeful and competitive, many of the qualities that made the Honda CR500 MXer such a great bike, BUT GG just do not have the solidness, build quality and reliability. The gearbox and kickstart may be adequate in the hands of god riders who do not keep their bikes that long, but in the hands of Joe average and below over a longer timespan they are just not rugged enough. That is and will remain my opinion until I see a substantial redesign proven over a period of time. The frame and coolant system only need minor improvements. Nigel, you called me Walter Mitty, well he lived in some sort of dreamland I do not. I was but off buying a Pro because of their poor reliability. GG needs to take note of the concerns of lost customers. You quite like quoting DL, well I remind you that when designing the Vertigo he stated he looked at the strengths and weaknesses of existing bikes and has stressed that the Vertgo gearbox has been tested for two years. It is telling that as a GG rider he has highlighted this. I understand the TRS team have done the same. GG need to review the reliability of their older privately owned bikes and get the issues sorted. A look at spares sales should give them a fair clue. I cannot think of any other manufacturer who has sat on such a serious issue as the Pro gearbox for so long without sorting it. Guys #63 Sherco clutches. This is a not uncommon mod. The standard clutch is fine for most riders but does not perform well when repeatedly dumped in a higher gear at high revs to launch the bike at big steps etc as needed by championship riders. The mod includes separating the gearbox and primary lubricants, meaning a thicker EP oil can be used to protect the gearbox whilst leaving the rider free to choose a thinner oil to give the clutch feel they want.

The formula brakes can be made to work well and reliability. From new they had 2 initial problems. Machining swarf was left in the fine passages Some of the edges and ports that the seals moved over had sharp edges / burrs One or both of the above then wreck the seals or jams the pistons. Thorough clean out, polish and deburr and they should be OK

#12 and #13 My use of Chad Evans was simply an example of how posting even a valid point of view can result in unwarranted unpleasant responses, just as happened to Jess Ennis who expressed a different point of view. Nigel your are right on this occasion, I have sons. My long post (others have posted longer) was not meant as a lecture to anyone, but if some learnt of the pitfalls of being too open on the internet so much the better. I know of quite a few people (youngsters mostly) who have through ill judged posts on forums or face book made finding future employment much more difficult or even acquired criminal records for themselves or associates. In addition to motorcycling I have some interest in conservation. I have taken part river improvement and fish stocking and had articles published on river pollution. If I were to apply for employment in this sector any association with off road motorcycling would be detrimental to my application. Billyt#8. I have been interested in motorcycles all my life, and this dates back to watching Hailwood on his Honda 6. I have competed on both two wheels and four, made expert grade at trials, A group at MX and have won club level grass track. I have worked in engineering all my life, including mechanical, construction, motor vehicle and off road. I am qualified as both a mechanical and motorcycle engineer.

The photos and description are a good guide as to how and why you should kick a gasser correctly, but does it answer thedbf's original question? Any progress on the original question?

Very impressive.