the rules have been altered to allow non-British bikes at the discretion of the Club.
All very good but ! did the club have to alter the sections /classes and scrutineering ( as your wanting ) or did the club just run the trial as normal and the rider and said bike just got on with it ? But your wanting the same small team that takes entrys , find sections, do the flags, finds observers , tidy up & do the results & now your wanting them to take on a nut and bolt scrutineering to check if a bike is all original ? just so your happy when you ride your 2 trials a year !
For me, yes, cost is a factor for something that I only ride once or twice a year, great if cost is not though for others. The other factor, for me, is simply keeping the original bikes going and out there for others to enjoy, which I think is also important. What exactly do you fear about including a sub-class and trying to protect or encourage original bikes in the sport?
well if you only ride once or twice a year really whats your problem ? but your expecting clubs to run sub class & carry out scrutineering for a class YOUR not going to support through out the year, For you keeping original bikes going and for others to enjoy well whos the others ? do you real think other riders (on cheat bikes ) care what older bikes were ?As for getting original bikes into the sport well whats stopping them now, Theres nothing or anybody stopping you from ridding your pre 65 at trials now apart from yourself
As a rider I lived the time element of the SSDT and the Scott. It provides some adrenaline when you are late 😄.
To be fair to the RFME I think they get more entries as they have more classes but that means you can't complete the day if everyone is balancing in every section, you need an incentive for people to hurry up.
This is the main problem with turning championships in to a multi class /multi route sections as each class affects another class ,So organizers need to make a call ! is it all about a good entry or a good trial fit for championship purpose,
IMHO if its the regulator ? why is it only the fan motor burning out as as the regulator dose not make volts just keeps them a constant voltage , Stator must be good as bike has electric power to run A sticking fan motor would draw more current to try to turn it but that in turn would draw more current /volts from rest of system ie fuel pump /ignition thus causing bike to stop /cut out ,
But if the temp sender ( intermittent ) faulty ie not cutting fan OUT fan motor will run continually causing over heating of fan motor as a fan motor is NOT built to run like that,,,, OR IF the fan motor is/or running continually is the fault a coolant flow problem ? causing the fan motor to work over time As for Fan relay i think it only cuts fan motor volts off for starting when the bike is hot ,to put all volts/current to starting mode then cuts back in once started sending volts/current to fan motor
As said above, this subject has ‘run out of puff’, any form of mechanical regulation as per the wooden block suggested above will only further reduce the entry and in fact only affect the lesser rider.
You get your eyes opened to the ability of the top riders when you see 90 degree air turns on a pre unit AJAY / Ariel, a bit of wood won’t stop them it will just make sections harder for everyone else!
theres things that can be done in all aspects of trials only thing holding it back is how much people want to enforce the rules
With pre 65 your wanting a level playing field rule that is easy to implement = simple have a maximum ground clearance how to do that well by means of bolting blocks of wood to frame/bash plate if needed to give correct ground clearance as with F1 cars
The problem with the lack of officials may well be pre65 / twinshock which has extended the riding career of riders into their late 60s. At what point have they had their turn and will stop riding in order to observe ? At one point people who stopped riding then contributed to the sport but not now.
As for the number of pages if we remove your ongoing debate with dabster that will half the thread length will it not ?
Another very good point ! you and all will be very happy to know im done with it all !
If none of it affects your life why would you say such a horrible thing in the first place, im guessing you voted for brexit too.
GROW UP YOU SAD MAN YOUR SHOWING YOURSELF UP NOW !!!!!!!!!!!! Dose Dabble or Price leaving WTC have anything to do with me ? dose it affect my life ? dose it pay my bills ? Plus you can guess how i voted ? thats pathetic! & I really dont care !!!!!!!!!!
youve just avoided admitting you are wrong again, by using loads of different aspects gb when we are taliking GP etc etc.
Your argument/viewpoint is an incoherent shambles and not worth the effort.
My main disagereement is your castigation of decent lads riding trials at wtc level, whatever class.
Ive come across hundreds of wtc riders, some arrogant some awkward some cheating riders, but never one from the UK or anywhere who thought the sport owes them a living and you just wont name the riders you say that applies to, I can only assume cos you know your statement was false and wont back track and admit your mistake?
OK IM WRONG YOUR 100% RIGHT SO WHAT EVER YOU SAY HAPPY now Nigel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GB ridders will be at WTC or not i really dont care !!!! make a living from it or not I really dont care !!! BTC will be great I really dont care !! WHY coz non of it effects me and my life !
Skiers in the states tried to get the snowboard banned when was first invented. It appears more popular with younger people than skis. Snowboard parks are now common in ski resorts and are far removed from the original concept of who could ski down a hill the quickest.
Now people use skis in the snowboard parks.
You may not be sure change is the answer but the status quo isn't working in terms of young riders or sales for manufacturers. Football and F1 continually change their rules. I would argue the original concept of reliability trials was just to see if the bike got round the course. Sections as we know them were not the original concept.
No minority group insists on playing with a 1960s ball or boots. Nobody turns up at an F1 track in a 1980 ferrari and then asks for the rules to be reversed back to how they were when the car was competitive.
As a minority sport setting off in different directions has been a mistake. The original concept of pre 65 being cheaper is long gone and people now invest modern bike sums in bikes made by factories that no longer exist.
Our splinter groups need to reform back into a single group with an acceptance of others under a ser of rules that can be reliably observed with sections to suit. So not no stop with turns you can't get round for example.
All good points BUT as you point out things change well the trials concept can not or it will cease to be trials. you ride between 2 sets of flags loosing marks along the way or not ! you point out Pre 65 do they still not ride between 2 sets of flags still trials. But ride between 2 sets of flags no observer it becomes enduro or moto cross, Rules are in place but this is part of the problem with WTC & BTC riders going watching know the rules but not seeing them being implemented ! the young riders copy/ ride like there heros at club level sulk when they get a 5 for doing the same thing !, We All seem to worry about the wrong things in trials cash/sponsorship ,getting young riders into the sport BUT what need to really worry about are Officials to run clubs ,observe take ,entrys put flags in etc all volunteers( amature ) , BUT what do we have 6 pages of lack of sponsorship /cash to keep rides in WTC /BTC prioritys need to change !
My reference above was for UK riders in TRial GP, not gb, and as 2021 is only 2 weeks away anyone who is sponsored will have that in place, but come back and prove me wrong when youre ready.
So lets take Cabestany, has he left trial GP when he dropped a few places?
Fuji?
Graterolla has dropped a class not a few places. Are these still riding?
Jack Price hasnt dropped a few places, but he's left, how does that fit your view?
Explain how an elite sportsman in any sport, sponsored or not could compete and keep a 9-5 job?
For your reference ?since were talking BRITS well Brits just leave dont move down a class just leave ! and will 2021 only 2 weeks away will it be a real full championship ? OR due to covid
AS for backing If they dont have /or get sponsorship people must feel there NOT good enough to get it , is that due to too many riders getting bigged up by family and friends in turn them riders expect sponsorship ?
AS for Cabestany DID he not move to gasgas electric ? after a gap leaving/pushed from sherco, & Graterolla dropping down a class is doing better now in trial 2 than he ever would in GP NOW both are WTC Champions and what dose that bring £s and sponsorship !
Fuji as the number 2 rider in the team he can and dose beat a lot of other teams number 1 riders so hes doing his job ! HRC seem happy with him to pay him
All the names you point out have 1 thing in common they are well established and PROVEN with teams and sponsorship, and over the years been making friends/sponsors dropping down the ranks & moving class but still there !
A elite sportsman MAKEs HIS OR HER LIVING from that sport ,so there going in to that sport as ive said "entitled/expecting" to make there living from it BUT if trials is a AMATURE sport " thats a good career choice !" my point exactly they dont have a 9-5 job so there expecting to make a living from trials !!
Now Jack Price how long in full wtc ? so not well established /not proven & not made a massive impact at wtc level
In the past those named above have earned money from trials. I would also say in recent years with the michaud no-stop rules the sections were eased and prolonged the careers of the top riders like never before.
In 2021 in the uk I dont think any riders are earning from the sport.
Simple enough to understand now?
I've answered your question, so for the zillionth time of asking who do you say are these riders and I quote " these elite/top riders feel- the sport owes them a living" ???
Try and KEEP up Nigel here it is simple for you
A. its NOT 2021 YET so who knows !
B. the TOPIC is about trial GP so not trial GB so what has 2021 and riders in the UK got to do with anything ? I say again GP
AS ive said a zilionth time " I class all " i say again I CLASS ALL sponsored riders a problem ! because they are part of the problem pushing the higher end of the sport into the decline its in , pushing sections harder and harder so of course they push harder and harder its no big deal to them they smash a bike up there not the ones picking the full cost of bills up are they ! as I said in other posts trials is ONLY a amateur sport (going well) but were sponsorship is involved its in decline even at club level (expert course) trials needs to split AMATEUR or SPONSORED and not the mix we have now ! and before you say ! sponsorship USED to work well back in the day when it was 1 route for all as ,everyone had the same chance ! and YES i have been a sponsored rider so know full well the advantage it gives you
So to recap for Nigel " I class" ALL i say again "ALL" "ALL" ALL" sponsored riders the/a problem ! AND the topic is about TRIAL GP Thats NOT trial GB !! elite riders living? well they soon leave when they drop down a few places and not get the same sponsorship ,so how many of these top/elite riders have a 9-5 day job away from bikes ? and on the subject why do people take up a profession if not to make a living from it
As a poi all riders (in the uk) who are sponsored at some level are very unlikely to get "paid" in fact im struggling to think who would be in 2021 and isnt using that pay to fund the travel and simple expenses of competing in the WTC, at any level?
5 hours ago, nigel dabster said:
Pretty sure Bou Fuji Raga and Dougie have made a good living from trials, mainly outdoor. Cabes and fajardo have made a bit due to longevity i guess.
so which is it Nigel ? you have confused me are they Making a living out of trials OR Not making a living out of trials ? so of course the top riders want harder sections its to keep them at the top of the pay packet
Im about done here, as you refuse to name those riders YOU pointed the finger at...........
As a poi all riders (in the uk) who are sponsored at some level are very unlikely to get "paid" in fact im struggling to think who would be in 2021 and isnt using that pay to fund the travel and simple expenses of competing in the WTC, at any level?
Clearly you are wrong about leaving due to lack of sponsorship as Jack Price had a year to run, and Im sure dibs couldve got some deal if he wanted to do it again.
Nigel its so great WTC & BTC both will survive in there current format and COSTs ! Your right Im wrong on all counts with riders knowing full well what they have let themselves in for along with the costs and with not needing to make a living from it then no problem for them
I repeat, cos i dont think its true, which riders " feel- the sport owes them a living" ?
Well What I think is --- ALL Riders getting sponsorship and payed , but loose that ! they leave the sport,SO,obviously its only the money keeping them there , it MUST there living as they can not afford to stay without it
And please YOU TELL US which riders think it owes them a living?
well nigel whats the topic about ? riders leaving due lack of sponsorship at wtc &btc what dose that need CASH !.Nice list of names you gave think you will find most of there pay came from factorys for development work . .As for events ive seen about 20-30 when living in Europe & l since moving back to the UK 3-4 .As for names I will never ever name names out of respect for other people .As for riders WELL RIDERS WHO ARE DOING IT FOR A LIVING ! But I will bow down to your vast Knowledge powers of trials as your the man Andrew !
Sorry no offense, but I'm a little lost on your argument?
We are all aware that there is no money in trials and that its only popular with mainly "trials" riders, especially at grass roots level. It's also obvious that the major problem is with the minority at the elitist level. But the point is because there is no money to aid young talent and or existing talent to compete at this level then there will of course be no riders coming through to "de-throne" the top few riders. Unless you are privileged enough to come from a wealthy back ground, to compete at this level is going to be extremely difficult and requires significant sponsorship funding. I don't see how this is directly the individual rider's fault? It's just the way the sport has developed like it or loathe it.
No one is arguing that to achieve great things requires great commitment and hard work! But again, this is the point, that commitment and hard work also requires funding, certainly at the top level where the intensity is extreme and this includes all forms of motorsport, modern trials being one of them.
no offence taken at all "intotrials" BUT i really dont think people are aware because if they are why have they picked trials ridding as a carrier ? trials will ever only be a hobby sport and these riders need to grasp that fact
My perspective is you dont know anything about trials at the elite level, even less the efforts, commitment and costs involved for young riders and their families. There is a big long list I could give of french Italian spanish, and British lads who have tried and (I imagine) like Jack Price question the long term requirements versus possible returns when they get near the elite class. I cant think of any of the hundreds ive watched ever going into the sport thinking I could get paid for this, perhaps you know different?
When did any elite rider ask for a "hard Circus"?
How have these top riders priced themselves out of " a job"?
NO nigel YOU TELL US were the money is in trials ? as for your perspective of me what ever ! As for names how far back do you want to go ? i have been doing trials long enough to know there is NO money in it ! , if it costs "X" amount to sponsor a rider and that sponsor/business used the same "X" amount advertising on the internet which will have the bigger audience trials rider or the internet ? value for money. /,So tell us Nigel when the rewards are so low why are these riders allowed to/are keep push the sport to such a level that the costs out way the return AS cost and commitment well thats any sport if you want to be good at it !"Hard circus sections" how do you think non trials riders see it ? when grass root riders can not even relate to the sections !"Riders priced themselves out of a job" well they can not afford to pay for it on there own but they need to be in it to win it to get the sponsor ! why do people think trials will become a mass spectator sport and that will fix the cash problem ? some sports are just not popular to non participants and trials is one of them sports
sorry if people feel this is harsh but whats the point of looking through rose tinted glasses at problems As ive said in the past trials at grass routes is doing well !!! the part of trials that is struggle is the part were money /sponsorship is involved !!!!!!!!!!!!! I never thought trials is /will or has been a professional sport
Let me think well how about the ones that throw the towel in when they dont get sponsorship !!! these top /elite riders got what THEY wanted hard "circus" sections but still want harder ,+ needing minders and parts and that comes at a cost (to get there and be there ) well they now have priced them self out of a job They want to be there but expect a sponsor to pay for them to be there that sort of rider Nigel !
Its impossible really to succeed unless a private sponsor is paying or you have wealthy parents. Practice isn't just the rider, its rider plus minder. Repair bills when things go wrong must be horrendous.
So to practice like Bou, Raga etc you probably need to be able to fund a full time rider and a minder, two bikes a year minimum plus parts, a van etc.
That level of spend needs to be maintained until the rider is picked up by a factory. I would think the majority of the factory budget probably goes on the top 5/6 riders?
Then most of the money in the sport is going on pre 65 and twinshock bikes. So factories have much less to spend on a world championship, in fact two world championships including x trial.
All this before you take into account that there is no agreement on which rules to apply
I find it disgusting that these elite/top riders feel- the sport owes them a living ! when the sport is run by volunteers week in and week out
Its the PRO end of trials thats the problem with the lack of funds ! well if the funds arn,t then redundancy comes thats life ! ,Trials will never get the numbers of spectators to fund the PRO rider and that rider has turned the sport into a circus with sections getting out of hand but wanting it harder ? you got what you wanted hard sections but a lack of riders = lack of funds =redundancy !!! i find it very strange some people really think the lesser riders / governing body should pay for the PRO riders way of life , Would top level trials be in such a mess if these top riders had a 8-5 job to fund there sport ? thus not spending all day training, getting so good they need the circus style sections SO when pro /top rider leaves i wont be shedding a tear for them, How much have these riders put back into the sport, trials schools YES but charge for the privilege !!!!!!!!!
(Look back at British Championship events in the golden age of the 70's marks lost then were usually nearer a 100)
(Its you're not your btw)
REALLY and what has that got to do with anything ? should we all stick another shock on and fit drum brakes ? soon get them nearer to a 100 or over that way ! AND back them days there was a grading system ! that worked and riders were in it not like todays
Pre 65 Future & Pre 65 Rules
in Classic Trials
Posted
All very good but ! did the club have to alter the sections /classes and scrutineering ( as your wanting ) or did the club just run the trial as normal and the rider and said bike just got on with it ? But your wanting the same small team that takes entrys , find sections, do the flags, finds observers , tidy up & do the results & now your wanting them to take on a nut and bolt scrutineering to check if a bike is all original ? just so your happy when you ride your 2 trials a year !