Intotrials

They could have, something like in MX - where they have an electronic radio device attached to the bike which then allows lap timing without the need for someone with a clock. At trials world rounds the timer starts as they enter and finishes as they exit each section. There could be an indicator on the handle bars which shows a count down. Then regardless if the rider completes the section without fault if they go over time they are automatically given a 5. There would be no discrepancy and the observer wouldn't have to worry about a stop watch. The observer could have a receiver which shows him/her the time also. There could also be a master receiver back at the score control that records all the times for each rider per section, per lap. this way there is no doubt or argument. Hey, they could even introduce an award bonus system, where perhaps a rider gets a mark deducted for an accumulation of a certain amount of saved time per lap, who knows ?

There's no need to have timed sections at a club level. As b40rt says its just a bit of fun for the majority of riders. Getting volunteers to observe is difficult enough without putting them under more undue pressure. At Championship level where the riders are actually professional and are paid to compete then keeping a tight format is a necessity in my opinion. There is generally 2-4 observers per section and the riders have minders, so plenty of support to keep an eye on time. The other thing is, world events should attract bigger crowds, if these crowds start to diminish then there is a problem that needs addressing. If that problem is due to boredom, which in my opinion it seems to be heading that way, then this needs addressing. There's nothing more boring than watching a rider static messing around lining up. The more dynamic a rider is the more exciting it tends to be to watch, so a time limit on a section helps keep things moving. I guess the no stop rule was an attempt to improve this also, shame it fails due to the modern style of riding and current trend of section design.

The "no stop" rule is a farce at world level! If it was strictly adhered to (which all rules should be to keep things consistent and fair) then 100% of the riders would be 5'd on average 90% of the time at current world events. No observer is going to five a rider for a momentary stop, but the length of those moments is getting increasingly longer and often riders also go backwards and still get away with it. Imagine introducing someone new to the sport and trying to explain the rules " oh the riders get 1 mark for footing once, 2 marks for footing twice and 3 marks for footing 3+ but completing the section" simple enough! Then they get 5 marks for failing the section e.g dismounting the bike, stalling, falling off, going backwards, going outside of the marked section... oh and stopping at any point within the section! Imagine their confusion when they witness riders stopping all over the place but being awarded less than a failure! Me personally, I'd be completely bemused and consider the sport stupid.

No need, an experienced section builder / course manager should be able to design each section based on an estimate in line with one time limit set (90 secs) to complete the each section. They won't get it perfect every time, but no matter, its the same for all the riders so they have to adapt! Keep it simple and consistent that way its as fair as it can be for every rider and easier for the observer to judge.

Bottom line is the sport as developed as all technological based things do, the bikes are just so versatile and these guys are exploiting this. For me and I'll stand by my opinion, the sport has developed into 2 sports - X-trials and traditional trials the average clubman cannot relate to the technique required for X-trial, its acrobatic and totally different than traditional trials. Personally I'd like to see more traditional style sections in the outdoor world championships and less of the X-trial stuff. As much as I admire and watch in awe at the skills of the top guys to be able to attempt such massive dangerous stuff, watching the same thing for lap after lap of 15 sections gets rather boring. You can take marks off the top guys if you set trickier sections rather than more massive. Do or die sections can be exciting to watch, yeah sure stick a couple in there but to have this style as the generic trend just spoils it for me. What I would like to see is a diverse range of sections offering different challenges rather than just flat out up a big step time after time. I don't have the answer, and I'm not sure what the solution is (assuming one is required) but it does seem that trials at this level is rapidly losing popularity, which is a dam shame for us all.

There have been only a few riders in the history of trials who have influenced the evolution of the sport taking it to another level. Tarres is definitely one of those few, along with Bou. The standard of riding at the top level has improved, you also see this across all kinds of sports these days. Bou like Tarres & Lampkin is a once in a while talent who come along and dominate during their era, arguably Bou being the best of them all. I wouldn't argue that Bou's skill level is above and beyond anyone that came before him. Somebody once quoted when Bou was just coming through the ranks "he's a good rider, if he learns to keep his front wheel on the ground he might make it to the top".... I'm sure similar comments were made about Tarres when he was young and up and coming.

The average rider cannot relate to the skills of a world series rider, especially the likes of the top Spanish. The sport has evolved, the modern style of riding just on the back wheel is far removed from the traditional style of riding. Its very skilful and very trick, the younger riders coming through are imitating this and are mastering the technique, for everyone else its like trying a new sport. Don't get me wrong I'm not apposed to this riding style, I love trying to have a go myself, but the truth is I can and do just watch in awe. These guys attempt stuff that just looks impossible to the average rider and that divide is getting larger. I play golf, I could play any course in the world, not as good as the pro's but I could get round. I can jump on a GP bike and race around Silverstone, no where near as quick as the pro's but I could get round. I've been riding trials for 30+ years, at a high standard in my younger days, I couldn't ride a single section at a world round, I wouldn't have a clue how to attempt them even if I had the courage to do so. This for me is why I feel the sport has evolved into 2 different sports. Trials & X-Trials.

I use stainless bearings and pack with water proof grease this combination seems to work well. Rusty bearings cause a lot of the problem, which can happen if you pressure wash regularly and the bike stands a while also. stainless bearings eliminate this problem but they do wear just the same as mild steel equivalents, so its still important to keep them well lubricated for longevity. One thing I always do is after jet washing my bike I run it round the yard/drive to dry it off before i store it away. Getting rid of the moisture off the bike before you store it really helps. When I was moto x riding we always ran the bikes up and around after a wash, especially the 2 strokes cause they were prone to main bearings & big ends failing if the bike had stood for a while due to moisture causing rust.

I agree, and I never would suggest we should. For me Tarres took the sport to a new level and changed the culture of the riding style, again - partly due to the capabilities of the modern bikes. Bou has taken it to an even new higher level, fully exploiting the capability of a modern bike. Unfortunately the side effect of this is an ever growing divide between "normal" riders and elite riders. I think this divide is inevitable as technology continues and the elite become greater athletes. But we have to accept this or change or do something about it. The main debate being what is best for the longevity and survival of the sport? And does the current world championship have any bearing on this anyhow?

I agree and understand your point, but the difference is, because Bou & co are not able to perform the same acrobatics on the older bikes then the sections would have to reflect this also. This means a novice rider though still unable to match the skills of a top rider can relate more closely to the "older" riding style. I have touched on this on other threads. I remember watching Eddy Lejuine doing pivot turns and small wheel hops and the crowd wowing at the spectacle. But the average rider was able to go out and attempt the same feats without fear of serious injury, the average rider though no where near as good as Eddy could at least relate to what they were watching. In fact not just the average trials rider, but anyone who had an interest in motorcycling in general.

I agree, this is because the modern bike allows for a riding style that is can be very elite. In that you can do "acrobatics" more easily on a modern bike, which takes fine tuned skill and lots of courage. The average rider hasn't the skills nor the courage to attempt such feats. But you see the young riders coming through are imitating the new riding style and are learning to be brave at this early age. For them this riding style is the norm. For anybody who comes into the sport from a different discipline such as road race or moto x, then the modern style of trials riding is so far removed from what they deem as "motorcycling" they cannot relate to the top level riders. I mentioned before, the sport of trials has developed into 2 different sports - Acrobatic trials (X-Trial) and Traditional trials

I don't think this is entirely the case. I agree, much like most sports these days the quality of competitor at the top levels is generally better than years back. You see this in sports like golf etc.. Part of this is because they are "athletes" these days they focus so much more on their physicality and are more professional with more money and backing allowing them to excel there skills to the max. The "normal" person doesn't have this luxury. Put Bou on a 1980's twin shock and yes he will still probably beat most other people on the same bike but he will not be able to do the stuff he does on a modern bike. I don't agree with halting progress, I'm a big fan of innovation. I wouldn't condone restricting the tyres or bikes, handicapping the riders like this is (in my opinion) not the answer.

Trouble is no one, without exception, in world championship trials strictly adheres to no stop. The main reason, I suspect, from what I have witnessed is that the sections are designed in such a way that to complete them strictly no stop is near on impossible. If every brief pause was deemed a 5 then the entire entry would be 5 'ved on 90% of the sections each lap.

I remember the world rounds back in the late 80's early 90's the venues were cracking with vast variety. The scores were cricket scores, but every section was attempt - able by all the entry. The top riders still aced the lesser riders but the scores divide was evenly distributed, the crowds were large and it was not boring to watch. The sections were of a good variety showing off the skills to tackle all sorts of terrain, from deep mud, & hill climbs to rivers, rocks, logs, bank sides with tree roots... The club riders could relate and appreciate this and it certainly encouraged me to go out and practice/compete more in the hope that I could have a go at tackling at a similar severity.

I have to agree with you about the X trials. If you bring up each round over the past few years on tube they all look the same and they are just following the culture of "bigger the better". This of course makes it more dangerous and the sections truly do become do or die! I appreciate that indoor is more difficult to add variety because you are limited to what you have to work with within an arena. Its a bit like the "supercross" in this respect. It seems the outdoor is following the same trend though and getting worse each year. The sport at this level is unrecognisable to club level, its become an elite acrobatic sport that would be more suited to X games. I don't know the answer to resolve the problem and bring back outdoor trials as it was originally intended. Maybe I would start by looking at the way sections are set, I mentioned this in another thread on the same topic.

I agree with everything you have said here, I've done some observing myself at worlds rounds, you have to have thick skin. You are right, at most grass roots comps the riders just want a ride out and have fun! The sections can be set at a severity that tests all levels but are not dangerous and achievable without stopping. Personally though "stop" permitted gets my vote with a time limit on the section, it takes the pressure off the observers, makes it less ambiguous and gives the riders a fair chance of getting themselves out of trouble. For the world rounds I'd concentrate on making the sections trickier rather than more dangerous. Putting in 12' steps that are do or die makes no sense, this just plays right into the hands of Bou & co. The world champions should set an example, it should be a mixture of all the terrain and have the variety of sections trials riders face at club level but with a severity that tests the top riders without being dangerous or silly. This is how they used to be 30+ years ago, what went wrong?

5 seconds is a momentarily stop, a well defined one! which was my point. I chose this value as it is easier to manage than 2 seconds but short enough to keep things generally moving. I don't claim it is a solution, just a compromise which might be an option. If you are going to allow stopping but are concerned about riders taking an age to complete a section then you need to implement some sort of time limit for a stop, to keep things consistent. Maybe a time limit for the section as done so in the indoor is the best option?? No stop is definitely nonsensical at this level and maybe national level and above. Show me an observer who is willing to strictly follow the "no stop" rule to the letter in a major event and i'll show you a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. If you are going to allow stop with no restriction the riders will just spend ages lining up and messing around wasting time and making it very boring to watch. The riders will bend and exploit the rules as much as they can, why not if it gives them an edge? Honestly, I don't see a total win win solution, the modern style of bikes and riding are just not suited to strictly no stop. For example, I can flip turn my bike in such away that both wheels are not turning at all yet the bike is slightly moving forward but it looks like i'm stationary & vise versa. What would the observer award me? I suspect I'd get a mix of decisions which I would have to accept. The top guys can do this type of trick riding far better than I could ever dream of doing, some of which strictly could be deemed a stop, but they manoeuvre the bike in such a way that it looks like its not stopped & vise versa. And again when faced with a huge step they often pre-load the bikes' suspension with a very slight pause before exploding into the step, or they sump out on the step pause very quickly as they heave the bike over. Who is going to 5 them for this pause?

Bou will continue to dominate until either age or injury catches up with him. He may decide to retire prior to either of these, but looking at the current young talent at the moment there is no one who shows signs of ever being good enough to topple Bou. We had a few glimpses from Busto and watching him in practice he looks as good as Bou, but when it comes to the big occasion he seems to lack the edge the other riders like Bou and Raga have. Maybe this is just a lack of experience, though Bou was already starting his dominance by Busto's current age. I think baldilocks has a point, the current world championship set up plays right into the hands of the top riders giving little chance to everyone else. When faced with such severe sections there is as much a courage element as there is skill. The problem being that when sections are set so that they are essentially do or die then the divide between the scores is going to be very large. This is partly why you see the likes of Bou finishing on just a few marks with very capable riders like Jack price in the hundreds. To be honest if you watch the world rounds the story always seems the same - Tight turns up massive dangerous steps and climbs, very spectacular to watch and definitely should be included in as a couple of sections. But it seems that most of the sections follow this trend and you see the score cards reflect this. The current outdoor championship is too similar to the indoor championship, for me they should be 2 totally different sports. Year in year out they try to take marks off Bou by making the steps bigger and the risks higher. When will they learn that to take marks off riders the sections have to be trickier to negotiate rather than more extreme. Bou & co will still be at the top because their skill level is so good, but it would divide the scores more even and give less courageous riders the chance to excel and claim back lost marks. When you watch the world rounds you already expect Bou to make all the big steps, its almost a given that he will excel against all the other riders at this. I find it more appealing watching the riders negotiate a really tricky section where absolute precision, balance, timing, throttle control is displayed to its max. Where they are fighting to hang on to the bike for a clean, rather than hanging on to the bike as they fall from a massive step! We as "normal" trials riders can relate to this. 30 years ago a decent national rider could compete at a world event, yes he/she would not fair well against the elite but the majority of the sections, though tough, were attempt-able. One of the problems these days is that the bikes are so trick and the new style of riding exploits this it will be difficult to change the culture of the younger riders coming through. Trials has almost developed into 2 separate sports - acrobatic trials and traditional trials.

Personally after watching the latest couple of rounds I don't see how they can observe world rounds as true "no stop" trials. In fact I don't see how you can run most modern trials strictly no stop unless you set "traditional sections" such as long straight, wide turn routes where keeping both wheels on the ground and turning is the advantage. The world round sections are predominantly still tight turns up big steps, with the odd bank side to climb! No observer is going to 5 a rider for a momentarily stop on such severe sections, especially the likes of Bou & co. From what I have seen the riders know this and as usual exploit the fact! As bad as the observation on the particular section in question on this thread was, I saw plenty of riders get away with what should have clearly been 5's. Bou brought the modern style of riding to the world and now all the kids are copying it. They will also copy their hero's antics and expect not to be 5'ved for a quick stop in a no stop section. And to be fair would you have the heart to 5 someone for a split second pause after they had a great ride through a tough section? I just don't see the point of running no stop, its difficult to observe and remain consistent. If no stop rules are to be used then the sections should reflect this and be achievable without any split second pause/stop similar to those in the 6 day or other similar national events. But, lets face it modern bikes are essentially designed to be trick ridden and the majority of riders enjoy doing or attempting a bit themselves all of us enjoy a good mixture of terrain and types of sections. This includes sections which require the trick riding, at least to some degree, so making all trials no stop limits the types of sections and limits the full potential of the machines. I personally would allow momentarily stop with no reversing, the stop being only a few seconds maybe 3 - 5 seconds where the observer can comfortably count before denouncing a 5. At the world rounds each observer could be given a counter with alarms, they press the button once the rider stops then an alert sounds after a preset time which indicates a fail, unless the observer presses once the rider sets off again within the preset time. It could even have a count down alert so everyone can hear, including the rider so there is no discrepancy.This system would not be 100% and sure would have its problems but at least there would be some consistency and less easy for riders to exploit and more encouraging for the lesser rider who wants a fair attempt!

I bought one from Gas Gas Uk (John Shirt) Wednesday, but they had limited stock.

Not seen the full entry list, but I'd assume the obvious trio would be (bike reliability permitting) Lampkin, Dabil & Price, at least this is where my money would be. It would be nice to see a few surprise runners though and I know there are quite a few more that are in with a shout and will give this trio a run for their money.

Have you tried the screwing the spindle in to just the threaded fork leg on its own? Sounds to me like the threads are damaged or as pindie suggests deformed due to being knocked. If this is the case then it will need tapping out using a tap and die set or in the past I've used a high tensile bolt with the same pitch thread that I've ground a taper on the end (start of the thread) and slowly persuaded it through with plenty of oil!

I agree, the thing is does the extra bling really make that much difference to the performance in a way that the average rider is going to notice? probably not... But, trials is my hobby and if i can afford it I would always go for the top model, why not? I scrimp and save else where in my life so I can have the luxury of swapping my trials bike every year or so. Even though trials is probably one of the cheapest motor sports you can do, this year I struggled a bit financially so had to stick to the racing model. My mate has had the gp model I have ridden and compared the two bikes, nothing noticeably different in their performances. Given the option, sure I would have the gp, just because it's the top model, if money is an issue (which it was this year) then the racing is a great bike and more than good enough.

In my opinion, no, the racing is more than good enough for the vast majority of riders. But if money was no object, then I would always go for the most blinged up bike available (who wouldn't). Though I do prefer the s3 hard rock foot rests, which I bought for around £70 then just swap them over to my new bike each time.

I find the four stroke's in general heavier. I owned a 300 gas gas and a 4rt and depending on my mood would ride which ever I fancied that day. I ended up selling the 4rt. Don't get me wrong it was a lovely machine, well built extremely reliable and very smooth. But in competition especially when I got tired I found it more of an hand full compared to the gasser. I also was more confident firing up a big step on the 2 stroke compared to the 4 stroke. When things were going wrong I found the 4 stroke to be a bit more of a maul. This is just my personal experience, obviously the 4rt's are awesome machines in the right hands (Bou, Fuji...). I think it just comes down to personal preference. But I have seen many riders go back to a 2 stroke after riding a 4 stroke for many years. As far a advantages and disadvantages I can't really see much in it. Trials bikes these days are pretty much as good as each other (especially for the average rider) I would say the only slight advantage a 4 stroke has over the 2 stroke is that they tend to be better on the road & no need to pre mix the fuel, oh and the 4rt is a very well built machine. The 2 stroke advantages are, the engines are less complicated (less moving parts), they feel lighter and in my experience they are easier to recover if you lose grip. The 4rt would grip really well until it lost grip then it (for me at least) was difficult to recover.