scorpa3 Posted February 15, 2008 Report Share Posted February 15, 2008 Correct. There is still confusion over fuel to oil ratios and air to fuel ratios. The word richer seems to be the main culprit. More oil in the mixture makes the mixture of fuel to oil richer. This has the effect of reducing the amount of fuel going into the engine, which makes the mixture of fuel to air weaker. Lets put the word 'richer' to one side for a moment. I normally use 80mls of oil to every 5 litres of fuel. If I put 100mls in instead, this will have the effect of raising the ratio of oil to fuel by a significant amount and (at the same time) reducing the ratio of fuel to air by an insignificant amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Did you know that there are Martians living on the moon and watching your every move? They have telescopes, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 (edited) scorpa3 Posted Yesterday, 08:15 AM Correct. There is still confusion over fuel to oil ratios and air to fuel ratios. The word richer seems to be the main culprit. More oil in the mixture makes the mixture of fuel to oil richer. OK for the sake of argument if more oil makes it richer when discussing fuel and oil mix. Then should the statement then read "That more oil makes the mixture of oil to fuel richer." If we are discussing the oil portion and refering to the oil being richer than the oil should be stated first. And I don't want any "well you know what I meant" type of replies, because if we knew what was meant than there would not be 2 pages just argueing what "richer" means. Edited February 16, 2008 by ZIPPY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjbiker Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Did you know that there are Martians living on the moon and watching your every move? They have telescopes, too! Good point though ! I wonder what ratio they mix the fuel for their UFO's ? GJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmck Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 OK for the sake of argument if more oil makes it richer when discussing fuel and oil mix. Then should the statement then read "That more oil makes the mixture of oil to fuel richer." If we are discussing the oil portion and refering to the oil being richer than the oil should be stated first. And I don't want any "well you know what I meant" type of replies, because if we knew what was meant than there would not be 2 pages just argueing what "richer" means. Zippy, If we were all riding four-strokes, I don't think you guys would be quite so confused. In very general terms, a four-stroke engine needs only fuel, air, and spark to ignite the mixture to be happy. Fill the gas tank with straight gasoline, kick-start it and away you go. As we are all aware, our two-stroke engines require an additional step prior to starting the engine...that step is to mix some oil in the gasoline so the engine will run longer than approximately three minutes before it seizes and you end up with a one-piece motor. Again, as we are all aware by now, we can't just dump a gallon of your favorite two-stroke oil in five-gallons of gasoline and ride off into the sunset; the oil must be mixed proportionally relative to the amount of gasoline for the engine to be happy. You stated in your last post: "That more oil makes the mixture of oil to fuel richer." If we are discussing the oil portion and refering to the oil being richer than the oil should be stated first. You are correct in saying that "That more oil makes the mixture of oil to fuel richer." , however when expressing the ratio of fuel to oil, the standard is "20:1", or "100:1", (or any combination between these two) etc. The standard implies that in a 20:1 ratio, there are 20 parts of gasoline to 1 part of oil. A 100:1 ratio implies 100 parts of gasoline to 1 part of oil. To express the oil/fuel ratio in the manner that you suggested it would read: 1:20, or 1:100. I would be fine with that, but I think it would create even more confusion for the masses. In summary, let's define richer and leaner in the following manner: (for the sake of this discussion, let us confine the terms richer and leaner to fuel/oil and fuel/air ratios and not the overall wealth of the motorcycles owner...I have been running way too lean for way too long.) For the sake of comparison and possible clarity, I will give examples of richer and leaner in both four-stroke and two-stroke engines. In a four-stroke engine, the terms richer and leaner refer to the engines fuel/air ratio: i.e. - "12:1", "13.5:1", etc. A fuel/air ratio of "12:1" implies that there are 12 parts of air to 1 part of fuel. A fuel/air ratio of 13.5:1 implies that there are 13.5 parts of air to 1 part of fuel. In the above example, the fuel/air ratio of 12:1 is richer (less air relative to fuel) than the fuel/air ratio of 13.5:1 (more air relative to fuel than 12:1, which makes the 13.5:1 ratio leaner than 12:1) In a two-stroke engine, fuel/air ratios of "12:1" and "13.5:1" behave exactly the same as in a four-stroke...i.e. - a "12:1" fuel/air ratio is richer than a "13.5:1" fuel/air ratio, and a 13.5:1 fuel/air ratio is leaner than a 12:1 fuel/air ratio. A two-stroke engine needs oil mixed in the gasoline to complete the combustion process as well as for lubrication of the top-end components, crankshaft, connecting rod, and bearings. (unlike the four-stroke engine that needs oil only for lubrication and heat rejection) Consequently, the amount (and quality) of the two-stroke oil that is mixed in the gasoline has a pronounced effect on the fuel mixture that the engine sees. As we all know by now and are in agreement with, the more oil that is added to the fuel, the richer the fuel/oil mixture is. Please don't confuse the issue by thinking that a 20:1 fuel/oil ratio makes the engines fuel/air ratio leaner; (because a 20:1 fuel/oil ratio has less fuel, more oil, in comparison to the oil than 100:1 does) it really doesn't, because of the carburetor. The carburetor does not separate the amount of oil in solution from the gasoline that the engine sees, it simply provides a fuel mixture to the engine that it recieves from the fuel tank, mixed with air. Therefore all else being equal, a "20:1" fuel/oil ratio provides a richer fuel mixture to the engine than does a "100:1" fuel/oil ratio. Zippy, I hope that this satisfies your statement: And I don't want any "well you know what I meant" type of replies, because if we knew what was meant than there would not be 2 pages just argueing what "richer" means. Finito... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 sorry quit reading halfway through when I realized there was just a bunch of words there to try to complicate things even more and dazzle the "rednecks" (I am one) among us with a bunch of fancy sounding explanations. By the way I never said anything about expressing the ratio itself. Just the wording in the statement should have been reversed to make the explanation easier to understand. What does 4 stroke got to do with this discussion? I done now no more replies from me. I bow to the master of ratios. finito Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpa3 Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Good point though ! I wonder what ratio they mix the fuel for their UFO's ? GJ Noticed that it was back on SciFi channel. Ed Straker seemed so believable in 1978. Seriously; I had no idea two stroke oil mixtures was such an emotive subject! Now, here's another..... how much oil do riders put on their air filter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjbiker Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 Now, here's another..... how much oil do riders put on their air filter? Oh oh here we go again.......... 13.7482 ml (or therabouts) painted on with a painty brush wrap in Mrs Wifes finest t-towel and squeeze out excess tickety boo GJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 BE CAREFUL! If you put too much oil in your air filter it will richen your mixture! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwrev3 Posted February 16, 2008 Report Share Posted February 16, 2008 BE CAREFUL! If you put too much oil in your air filter it will richen your mixture! Surely that's make it leaner! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2kracing Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 less air and more gas and oil mix means richer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axulsuv Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 (edited) !!!! OH $$hH AA TTT .. I run a K&N air filter , oiled correctly , but it allows better air flow so my bike must be way lean then !! RIGHT ! She must be a witch Burn her ! wood burns sotherefore if she burns , she must be made of wood ,and that means she's a witch (or something like that , monty python and the search for the holy grail ...) Glenn And the ailiens must be running some trick otherworld synthetic ! 'cause you never see a ufo VAPOR TRAIL !!!!! Edited February 17, 2008 by axulsuv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copemech Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 Surely that's make it leaner! Makes the damn thing lean to the side all the oil is on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil king Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 Makes the damn thing lean to the side all the oil is on! Are you sure it's not LISTING. Cope you forgot, more oil on one side makes it lean the other way just opposite of what you might think! More oil makes it lighter on that side because oil is lighter than water and wants to float on top of the water molecules in the air giving it a buoyant affect. More oil = lighter, less oil = heavier. Rule of thumb, less is more and more is less and less, and less, and less..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgshannon Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 Are you sure it's not LISTING. Cope you forgot, more oil on one side makes it lean the other way just opposite of what you might think! More oil makes it lighter on that side because oil is lighter than water and wants to float on top of the water molecules in the air giving it a buoyant affect.More oil = lighter, less oil = heavier. Rule of thumb, less is more and more is less and less, and less, and less..... I figured it was easier to just stop using oil all together. Now, I run my bike at a 0:1 ratio, and so far things are fine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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