S.E. Centre goes no-stop

[vmeldrew]

I was under the impression that a failure under no stop includes moving backwards. I have seen very few experts that can hop without moving backwards, albeit a very small distance.

[baldilocks]

keep the diet going perce and you could look that bad......

well in a couple of years anway suit

when you starting riding again, too cold for the one piece so no excuses

[rosey]

Years ago it was decided that you could roll backwards feet up for no loss. riders were doing this on twin shocks (shock gasp etc.)... As far as I can see the so called younger riders don't know this rule!

I belive no-stop makes some venues useable again, but I thought stop and go backwards was the best!

However, the best riders will still be the best riders if its no stop or 'no go'

I think it'd be better if the ACU made a singular rule for all non classic/twinshock trials.

[andat]

I was under the impression that a failure under no stop includes moving backwards. I have seen very few experts that can hop without moving backwards, albeit a very small distance.

Another problem with stop permitted is that it flatters the ability crap riders (me included) with a lower score than would otherwise be the case if they had to ride no-stop. Lets face it with stop permiited you either have to go backwards or bail off to get a 5. Trials is all about being in control of the machine and stop permitted whilst in theory rewards machine control if undertaken feet up actually benefits poor machine control when you are permitted to foot, have a breather, chat with the observer, have a fag etc etc...

Edited November 14, 2011 by andat

[huski]

Anyone thought about putting this to the vote to the riders this affects?To me you have the same rules globally,to ride no stop one week then stop permitted next week in a different area is never going to work

[pete_scorpa3]

Anyone thought about putting this to the vote to the riders this affects?To me you have the same rules globally,to ride no stop one week then stop permitted next week in a different area is never going to work

I agree that we 'should' have one rule for all. However, what I can't tell you is which rule to have?

Currently, organisers have the choice and this works very well.

I ride my Scorpa in trials that run TSR22A and my DRZ in LDT's which are TSR22B. No problems, providing you know what rule you are riding to then you ride accordingly.

You will never get an agreement as to which rules to use, if you asked every trials rider to vote, I suspect there wouldn't be more than a handful of votes either way.

Pete

[gizza5]

Currently, organisers have the choice and this works very well.

Some valid points Pete, but what may work well for the organisers does not transmit to the rest?

Point one when turning up to a trial outside the boundries of your club, do the riders actually know what rules they are riding under. Yes they should find out, but in reality this does not happen! then the arguements arise with the observers, which brings me to my second point.

It is hard enough getting obsevers then try and explain a different rule to the one they observed last weekend, its a nightmare.

Maybe the easiest way is to count the dabs up to 3 and if they stop or fall of its a 5, surely that is easy enough to explain? I can see why people don't observe.

One set of rules, I vote the FIM go No Stop because the ACU will follow whatever they do

[tricky dicky]

I've done every BTC this year and I've been to every world round apart from Japan and I can honestly say if anybody is aiming at doing the stuff Toni, Raga, Cabes etc do then you are dreaming. The WTC is basically now an indoor outdoors and it's so boring. Every section is all about how quick you can hop round because the sections are so long they can't take their time. I've seen the top riders having to take 3's because the sections are too technical. I'm sure that's not what the few hundred spectators ( as that's all there is now ) want to see. I don't mind if it's hopping rules or no stop, the winners will be the same regardless. Trying to encourage people to the sport though, of which trials is a poor mans sport at the side of most motorsports then no stop or something along those lines is more appealing. As has been said a lot of the responsibility is with the clerk of the course and section setting teams when the sections are layed out. I've seen at least 4 times this year in the S3 no stop championship that the sections haven't been layed out correctly and the observer has let the riders stop. This is a joke! The observer should just observe the rules of the trial and five everybody as then the clubs will realise that they have made an error. I grew up riding when reversing was allowed and it was all ok but a stationary dab was a five and this rule was abused as riders found how to get away without being fived. The argument that irritates me is that clubs say they can't set a difficult trial out due to poor land etc and they have to make it tight and hoppy to take marks. The only people that get penalised for this are the ones that can't hop! A trial doesn't need to be bigtime or hoppy to take marks, it just needs to be thought about and observed correctly. There will always be harsh observers and lenient observers but that's how it is. I just think we need a standard set of rules which apply to all trials and is easy to observe. Some observers quote that they let riders stop for 3 seconds in no stop trials! No stop would make trials far more manageable provided they are layed out and observed correctly. People seem to be scared to lose marks now but how do you get any better if you get away with stuff all the time?!

[motomanandy]

Can we not just see who can ride through their appointed flags anymore,why over complicate the sport with technicalities whats the point really? i mean.. were all here because its fun..arnt we

Edited November 15, 2011 by motomanAndy

[ishy]

Some valid points Pete, but what may work well for the organisers does not transmit to the rest?

Point one when turning up to a trial outside the boundries of your club, do the riders actually know what rules they are riding under. Yes they should find out, but in reality this does not happen! then the arguements arise with the observers, which brings me to my second point.

It is hard enough getting obsevers then try and explain a different rule to the one they observed last weekend, its a nightmare.

Maybe the easiest way is to count the dabs up to 3 and if they stop or fall of its a 5, surely that is easy enough to explain? I can see why people don't observe.

One set of rules, I vote the FIM go No Stop because the ACU will follow whatever they do

Makes sense Gizza. I remember a chap once mentioned at a meeting, why don't you just count the dabs up to five, 1234= dabs 5= fail might sound too simple but most of the time simple works, nadgery sections that a paddle through could mean at least twenty dabs would become very hard and a three or four is a good ride. As mentioned above stiffer scoring and more flowing sections make for a more appealing event for the average rider, no getting away from the fact the top riders are fantastic at what they do, but the average man can't relate to that so they don't.

Governing bodies will do whatever they feel is best for them, change only comes about when the masses say enough and force change, again said many times those marking out the events have the real power, just don't mark an event for the top few trick riders, the best will still win. I think our job is just encourage more to ride, not prove how good the few are.

I no longer have any interest at all in world or national championships, the enjoyment in this sport for me is just what it was 30 yr ago, it's local and less expensive.

[nigel dabster]

I've done every BTC this year and I've been to every world round apart from Japan and I can honestly say if anybody is aiming at doing the stuff Toni, Raga, Cabes etc do then you are dreaming. The WTC is basically now an indoor outdoors and it's so boring. Every section is all about how quick you can hop round because the sections are so long

So tell me which part of the polish round was like an indoor trial?

Was Fort william an indoor event>

Was carlisle?

[nigel dabster]

One set of rules, I vote the FIM go No Stop because the ACU will follow whatever they do

So why are there two sets of rules now?

[gizza5]

So why are there two sets of rules now?

Historically the ACU will tend to have a set of rules that will be the same as the FIM to enable our top riders and youngsters to compete and practise at the same level and they have tended to follow any changes.

But to answer your question I have no idea why we have 2 sets of rules?

I can however see the FIM maybe look at the idea of no stop it will get rid of the stupid timings which they seem to keep altering.

[woody]

Two sets of rules because that's what riders/clubs want?

There are those that like stop allowed and all the trickery that goes with it, there are those that prefer the more traditional no-stop and who can't bear being stuck in a queue at a section watching someone tossing about and waiting for them to get on with it.

The range of abilities, riding styles, ages and bikes is too diverse now for one set of rules.

No matter how much people advocate for sensible sections that can be ridden no-stop but whilst maintaining stop and hop rules, they are kidding themselves if they think that will suit everyone. If you can stop and hop competently you will p*** through a no-stop style section and it will be hard to offer a challenge for those that can do it well. They will just stop and hop and eradicate the intended hazard by riding lines that are impossible as no-stop. If they could stop and hop in the SSDT how many cleans do you think there would have been in this year's event. Stopping and breaking the sections down into sub-sections would have made them far easier for the better riders.

The WTC went no-stop once and it was a joke, they were still stopping all over the place and it spawned the ridiculous phrase of 'dynamic movement' or whatever it was.

You only have to look at the entry lists of certain trials each year to see what most riders want. The more traditional events are getting good entries and a few are oversubscribed. BTC - figures say it all. S3 not sure about as don't ride it but noticed from some of the scores of some very good riders at some rounds, it looked damn hard.

Freedom of choice for clubs/centres seems the sensible way to go. Why there should be difficulty in applying either set of rules baffles me. Under stop allowed you have basically got to fall off to get fived. Going backwards by vitue of crafty sideways hopping seems acceptable.

As for confusion over rules, what a load of B*****ks, if a rider doesn't know the rules of the event they've entered it's their own fault. It's not difficult. But then again, having observed quite a few events over the last 3 months, the fact that a lot of riders can't even work out how to navigate through the markers of a section, maybe understanding the rules is a step too far?

[tricky dicky]

So tell me which part of the polish round was like an indoor trial?

Was Fort william an indoor event>

Was carlisle?

Dabster I meant this year. Fort William was a strange event because the sections were taking marks because they were so long and the riders had to rush which meant that they had to take strategic dabs or 3's as they did on 1 section. I think you will find that Carlisle doesn't have many natural sections and they have been placed there with a digger! World rounds are a dying sport and there is always going to be the discussion about the rules. Michaud wants France to go no stop and why not. It doesnt need massive steps to take marks. I had a discussion with Cabes when we were in Spain and he says that with no stop the sections needed to be bigger, I don't agree as when he rode the ssdt in 2010 he had a 3 up pipers burn and straight after an over 40 clubman cleaned it no problem! This is how non stop works. It's not all about 10ft steps because the top riders don't lose marks on the big steps, it's the bits inbetween that take the marks. We have indoor trials as the showcase which is great but that doesn't get people buying bikes! Joe public wants to go and watch a WTC or BTC and think its very hard but they could have a go at a similar version of the course. They don't want to go and watch all the hopping 10ft up in the air and go home thinking "I can't do that", this is the problem.