July 31, 201412 yr I just watched footage of the latest round. We should all be embarrassed that we are trials riders and this is taking place. Thierry Michaud is destroying this sport quickly with some idealogical nonsense that he can make trials like it was 40 years ago with a couple of rule changes. This rubbish appeals to no-one. It is simply not a display of rider skills, and the disparity between riders given 5's is absolutely appaling. It is nearly the end of the season, and if this absolute garbage occurs again next year, heads should roll.
July 31, 201412 yr Yes it would be good to have a more objective / balanced view occasionally. Please remember the wtc was actually dying on its feet before the rule change, largely propped up by a 125 class paid for by parents. As dabster has mentioned numerous times whats happened to those who have won youth and junior titles ? Some are still there but Gomez, Morris, Bethune etc etc couldn't make the wtc pay. In what year did the top class last have 25 entries averaged across the year ? Under any rules you like ?
July 31, 201412 yr Why don't all the critical experts who post on here volunteer to observe at the British (or will it be English?) WTC round next year? Over the years I have seen some pretty diabolical observing, but looking back it just does not matter as its been outweighed by good observing probably a thousand times over. Its only a sport after all, not life and death.
August 1, 201412 yr b40rt, it's disappointing that you feel the need to resort to name calling, but if that's the best you can do? How can anyone that is 'objective' possibly argue that these latest rules are proving to be good for the sport at the highest level? Remember, I didn't start this thread. This is two years with these new rules, and the scoring is very, very clearly a big problem to a huge number of people. At this point, surely an objective person would question whether the current rules are actually working towards the long term interests of trials. Apparently the primary objectives of the change were to make trials easier at the highest level, and to close the gap between the best riders, and the next best. HAS THAT HAPPENED???? Very clearly, the gap has actually widened. There is absolutely no point burying your head in the sand and saying, 'well it would be OK if the observers.....', because they are clearly not going to. Every single observer at a world round is carefully trained on the theory of the rules, yet almost every single observer uses common sense and marks a good display of skill as good display of skill. Why is that?
August 1, 201412 yr Why don't all the critical experts who post on here volunteer to observe at the British (or will it be English?) WTC round next year? Over the years I have seen some pretty diabolical observing, but looking back it just does not matter as its been outweighed by good observing probably a thousand times over. Its only a sport after all, not life and death. The observing is almost a closed shop of bradford club or have i got that wrong? Life or a way to make a living? so it matters to some. Edited August 1, 201412 yr by nigel dabster
August 1, 201412 yr Have you responded ianw to the question I asked ? Have I said the rule change has been good for the sport at the highest level ? Trials isnt ice skating ian, observers are not supposed to award points on the level of skill they perceive. The role of the observer is to record the performance of the riders under the rules as set out. This doesn't happen under either set of rules but that doesn't prove anything. No stop hasn't worked at wtc level and i think a lot of people never wanted it too. Basically section designers have tried to apply no stop to the same or similar sections to before. However if we now change back we are just where we were 2 years ago with 10 - 15 entries at wtc level, the same top 5, the same declining entries in local events, not enough new bike sales, the same rider demographic, ie more over 40 riders than any other group. So now what ?
August 1, 201412 yr The IDIOTS running the WTC are driving the remaining nails into the coffin of global trials. Only very STUPID people would force this RUBBISH to continue. The riders don't like it, the observers don't like, the spectators don't like it, and everyone leaves a WTC round frustrated. The change to non-stop for WTC rounds was a mistake, but continuing in the face of the evidence is just stupidity. Your words !
August 2, 201412 yr I just watched footage of the latest round. We should all be embarrassed that we are trials riders and this is taking place. Thierry Michaud is destroying this sport quickly with some idealogical nonsense that he can make trials like it was 40 years ago with a couple of rule changes. This rubbish appeals to no-one. It is simply not a display of rider skills, and the disparity between riders given 5's is absolutely appaling. It is nearly the end of the season, and if this absolute garbage occurs again next year, heads should roll. "Overall the event/sections were good at the superb La Mongie French ski resort and the observing was good and fair." John Shirt Seems like this respected member of the Trials industry has a different view of what is happening. It's good to read the opinion of someone that was at the event and not 10,000 miles away. How long must we suffer your constant stream of negativism and BS ? Sell it down the road sister. Edited August 2, 201412 yr by twinshocked
August 2, 201412 yr The primary issue is that with todays technology, we have a avalanche of video evidence to validate the claims that when you have no stop rules, you get a wide range of highly subjective scores that make a joke out of the whole competition. The good news its apparent they have gone back to stop allowed, they just never announced it.
August 2, 201412 yr To be fair I noticed under previous and current rules riders going backwards without penalty, particularly on rear wheel. Trouble is we are going to have to accept some margin of error as the observer is observing live without video. Watching the WTC around Europe over a number of years you need 6/7 observers per section to police all the people not actually riding and stop them gardening. And if we go back to timed stop permitted rules we also need a timekeeper. Our sport cannot supply this many people.
August 2, 201412 yr I really do wish people would stop blaming observing discrepancies on the no stop rules. Some of the observing / scoring that went on under stop permitted was weird to say the least. I can recall events where if you put a foot down whilst stopped you could be awarded anything from a 1, 3 or 5 depending on the observer. I find it very difficult to criticise observers because they are just volunteers doing their best but clearly there is a problem with consistency. I feel that the only answer is to enforce the no stop rule to the letter of the law and award a five for even the slightest momentary stop. Earlier this year I was walking to some sections with an inexperienced observer (who thought I was new to the sport). He asked me if I knew how to observe to which I replied 1 for a dab, 2 for 2 dabs, 2 for 3 or more dabs and 5 for a stop. He then started telling me not to give a 5 for a brief stop, make it easy on the riders to encourage them. I will not go into detail but from then on things were a bit frosty. Clearly someone had given this observer verbal instructions that were contrary to the rules set out on the observing card. To reply to an earlier post, as far as I am aware Bradford Club do not decide who observes at Nord View, I don't know who choses the observers but I know a number of Cumbrian locals who have observed at Nord View previously were asked and declined.
August 2, 201412 yr Some of the trouble is the FIM promo scoring video is not equivalent to what Michaud and company is telling the scorers in the observers meetings.(Basically they said not to look to see if the spokes stop as some of the moves could still be in motion) After the first year I was disappointed that the rule was not clarified more. So we have all the whiners watching a video and saying this guy had a five and so did this guy. And if you ask the whiners why they dislike the rules is they are afraid of having more points! So why are the whiners the ones wanting the observers to give more points? You people are unbelievable! If the observers would be somewhat more consistant (Re-starting the bike while stopped is far from the rule) the actual trials is fine. With no-stop = no clocks, the riders are not allowed in the section at all and the minders have to ask permission. Clearing a section is not a problem as no one should be in it. The whole event flows well and the riders are still riding incredible obstacles. If we all worked harder to make it a good, fair competition we would not have so many disillusioned riders listening to a bunch of whiners. WTF? Edited August 2, 201412 yr by lineaway
August 2, 201412 yr Of course its the rules! They are subjective! Also, If you dont blame the rules, then you have to blame the checkers. Id rather have easy to implement rules myself as I agree that you cant berate a guy giving up his day off. Its not there fault, but that leaves the no good, no stop rules. It cracks me up when people use the logic that the old rules had riders moving backwards w/o penalty, so therefore the added subjectiveness of also determining a stop on top of that is OK. Two wrongs don't make a right in anyones book. If the old rules were subjective, we should have reduced the problem, not amplified them. But then, nobody can say the move to no stop was logical so never mind.
August 2, 201412 yr Some of the trouble is the FIM promo scoring video is not equivalent to what Michaud and company is telling the scorers in the observers meetings.(Basically they said not to look to see if the spokes stop as some of the moves could still be in motion) After the first year I was disappointed that the rule was not clarified more. So we have all the whiners watching a video and saying this guy had a five and so did this guy. And if you ask the whiners why they dislike the rules is they are afraid of having more points! So why are the whiners the ones wanting the observers to give more points? You people are unbelievable! If the observers would be somewhat more consistant (Re-starting the bike while stopped is far from the rule) the actual trials is fine. With no-stop = no clocks, the riders are not allowed in the section at all and the minders have to ask permission. Clearing a section is not a problem as no one should be in it. The whole event flows well and the riders are still riding incredible obstacles. If we all worked harder to make it a good, fair competition we would not have so many disillusioned riders listening to a bunch of whiners. WTF? You'll have to show us all those posts were people dont like no stop because of the points? Thats a new one on me.
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