dadof2

Fat bellies vs trim type. I reckon the difference at quite a few trials is about 10 stone.

Thank you faussy for #4, an accurate representation of my post. Just to put N Dabster right (not infrequently required) I do not favour return to twinshocks or points ignition. I favour a bike with disc brakes and monoshock. I am generally in favour of liquid cooling and electronic ignition but quite good arguments can be put forward for air cooling and points ignition. What I do favour is a bit more weight, perhaps limits on suspension travel and other developments that increase costs and make the bikes too capable resulting in dangerous sections. Truly amazing - I do agree with the last 9 words of NDs previous post

TL 125s must have sold a lot more elsewhere than they did in the UK., there were rarely more than 1 or 2 at a trial in this area. Regarding the escorts. A lot of the cars that achieved success at up to national and some at international events were based on production cars and used standard body shells. Many at club rally level were stripped out and tuned production cars, often having clocked up quite high mileages as road cars before being converted to rally use. Quite a lot of lads I knew used the same car for daily driving as they did in rallies. Same comment for minis, and a few other makes. Same comment for saloon car racing When trials started they were a test of the reliability of standard motorcycles with the aim of showing customers that if they could complete the Scott, SSDT etc then they were a good bike to buy for daily use. The sport has now changed, perhaps the last links with road bikes being broken in the late 1960s. Something would be amiss if bikes specially developed for the SSDT could not do their job. The Douglas my grandfather used as a daily bike was identical to those used in trials, the BSAs my father used were near identical to those use in trials.

Exactly where did I write "most trials engines are as light as can get" State the post number and line.

I suspect that there will b e quite a few who are disappointed that the Vertigo will not be appearing at the Y & G superstars trial the week after the Penrith WTC. The reason given is that they need to get them back to the factory to prepare them for the next WTC. I know these are development bikes but surely a quick chassis check and grease and transmission oil analysis should be all that is needed. I have previously questioned the merit of EFI and the electric water pump (both of which place critical demands on alternator) but one thing I think the Vertigo really needs is a good wrap round sump guard as fitted to the TY mono yams and Honda RTLs. Not only does this type of guard provide better engine side protection, it improves ground clearance and side clearance particularly at the front lower engine side area.

With no oil in fuel you would expect a sliding surface such as piston to bore to suffer damage before a rolling bearing such as main or big end. I only know of a few instances of no or seriously insufficient lubrication and only one resulted in the bore failing first and this was almost immediately after the autolube ran out. In the other cases there was no immediate damage obvious but after a few more hours running in one case the big end cage broke and in the others the mains failed.

I never said Beta and Sherco as light as can get. Frailty of GG - just read the GG forums for evidence I did not say an MX engine is used in road racing. Some of the 2T 125 GP engines were very very close to MX engines but when the FIM changed the 125s to 4T Moto 3 they deliberately drafted the regulations to prevent the use of MX engines (rules condemned by quite a few) however the 4T technology developed in 250 4T MX engines was very easily applied to the Moto 3 engines. Enforcing weight limits - use a set of scales, my motorcycle MOT tester has done this for years, no problems When the 2T trials engines were very similar to their MX, Enduro and trail counterparts in the 1970s many manufacturers took advantage of this to produce bikes for all 3 disciplines, including Ossa, Monntesa, Bultaco, Yamaha, Kawasaki and Suzuki. This is no longer the case as trials engines have become too specialised and the volume of sales does not justify development costs. If the trials bike rules were drafted appropriately so that a variation of an enduro or MX engine could be competitive more manufacturers might be tempted to enter trials.

Above link should show one video and lead on to a second. Yeadon & Guisely club are running a superstars trial week after Penrith WTC. I am posting these old videos for several reasons. Heavy bikes no bar to enjoyment of sport 50 riders on same WTC level course Winner on over 70 marks yet as far as I know no one complained or was injured Somehow trials needs to get back to (or at least some way nearer) this type of event / sections even if the winner only looses a few marks.

See post and comment I am putting in videos section

The rear fixings do not have metal pieces under the bolt heads (the front does). As standard there are no spacers between the rear of the guard and the frame but some people did fit them. When new the sump plug is slightly above the underside of the sump guard but in time the guard bends up leaving the plug exposed. The best solution is to have a special headless sump plug made. These are made from an Allen bolt head and you need someone who can cut a taper thread on a lathe to cut the tapered thread the match the Ossa sump thread. If you ride on rocks with the exposed sump plug you might punch it up and break the crankcase. A simpler solution is to turn nearly all the head off the plug just leave a small countersunk section, then saw a screwdriver slot in it. Slightly countersink the sump hole to match. Use thread sealing loctite or PTFE tape on the threads.

The GGs at this years SSDT may have been reliable, I have not looked up the statistics. It is people (generally club level riders) experience over the past 10 years that is key. I have bought 5 trials bikes since 2002 and my previous trials bike was a very reliable GG contact. Had it not been for the GG Pros gearbox and other problems it is quite likely at least 3 of the 5 bikes I bought would have been GG. As it was I bought other makes. Plenty of other riders I know have made similar buying decisions. This adds up to a fair number of lost sales for GG. What happens at top level is of limited significance, its what happens week in , week out over a number of years in the hands of the bulk of riders. I have never driven a Lancia. I have driven plenty of Mk1 & 2 Escorts including rally prepared. The point I was making was that the Escort (I could add Mini) achieved both international rally success and large sales, whereas the Lancia was very specialised and sold in much lower numbers. Even if more had been made I doubt they would have been sold. Regarding the Vertigo I was neither criticising or praising the bike, I was just wondering what category history will place it in, Specialised but rare or a mass seller? Billy Bolt 125 Ossa - excellent SSDT result but will it persuade many to buy one? The TL 125 cannot be considered the trial equivalent of an escort, it was neither a top level winner nor mass seller. Bulto 325 or Ty250 monoshock is much more the Escorts equivalent. The off road cycling event was in the last few weeks, just amateur / local club so may not have had latest bikes. There could have been some 10x2 or 11x1 there that I did not notice. I was just acting as back up mechanic / course closer for the easier course group. The going was wet / soft, some on peat type soil with some rocks in it and some on boulder clay mixed with knobbly grass tussocks. The front dérailleur problems were mainly clay clogging. The rear dérailleurs were either clay clogged or damaged by striking on objects when the wheel sank into ruts or hitting the tussocks. A single speed bike like a BMX or Monty would have coped far better. It was the wet / soft conditions that caused the problem, same route used in previous years with nothing like this years problems. Part of the route has now been closed to 4 x 4s because of land damage.

Look on the bright side, quality new mains are only a £few. I think the mains be changed without splitting the engine or removing the engine from the frame. One of the previous posers suggested that if there had been no oil in the fuel the engine would have nipped up. I am one who believes of having plenty of oil in the fuel (more than most) but I came across a Ryobi strimmer recently that had run 7/8 of a tank of straight petrol with no oil at all. The engine seems to be completely unharmed.

The GG Pro's light weight contributed to its lack of reliability, this in turn reduced the numbers sold, which reduced GG Motos profits and financial viability. "Sales are down etc" Poor bike quality, over specialisation and high prices are a factor in this. If I had included the Scopas (of any engine combination) I would have put them in the same group as JGas. People are often reluctant to buy from lower volume "one man band" type manufacturers irrespective of product quality or bike characteristics. As for who is responsible for polluting this SSDT thead, its was you and others who first brought up the bike weight / EFI / Electric water pump issue and asker where is Dadof2 and Copemech? People in glass houses ---- springs to mind. Remember Lancia - superb WRC cars, but a sales / business success? Whether the Vertigo is a Lancia or a Mk1 Escort only time will tell

Is or is not Manel Jane (the funder of Vertigo) of the same Jane family that makes prams and some other domestic goods?

http://www.janepushchairs.org.uk/ Wonder if they will use this distribution network?

Yes I have ridden both single gear fixed and free-wheel bikes down a hill. I meant to write single speed free wheel, not fixed gear as in no free wheel. My dad had a fixed gear track bike, it had no brakes and was ultra light. Effortlessly fast on a flat road but sod all use for anything else. Designed and built with a very focussed single purpose in mind, a bit like modern trials bikes. Nigel you write "you still don't get it do you" I get it all to well. The simple facts are because there are insufficient regulations to constrain the development of lightweight very narrowly focussed bikes the sport is going down what is very likely a dead end road. GasGas with its lightweight engine is pretty well up the creek Ossa perhaps the most technically advanced bike with its EFI etc is far from a sales success Jotagas another avant garde type design only sells in small numbers. Trials bike sales as a whole are pretty well down - certainly not an unqualified success. The reasonably successful manufacturers Mont, Sherco and Beta are selling relatively traditional bikes. I wish DL and his backers every success but when the Vertigo was first announced it was clearly stated the aim was to win at the highest level, ie SSDT and WTC. A refined thoroughbred may be the best way to achieve this but that does not mean it will have the characteristics that make a good bike for lesser riders on a budget. The monoshock TY250 was perhaps they best ever club level bike but it won very little apart from the Scott at a higher level. I am happy to continue this light vs heavy debate but if others wish to do so please start a new topic rather than polluting the SSDT forum.

I think main bearings or big end is a fair bet. Loose nuts tend to give a more defined clack or knock rather than a rough rumble. Big end can be rough running without there being any play in it.

Or Splatshop or Phoeton Aptec. PA do a bore material superior to the original. Edit - make sure any steel parts are removed from the barrel, the chemicals used will dissolve them.

I have had pitted forks repaired and re-chromed and hydraulic rams re-chromed. This was quite a few years ago and I can't remember who did the work but the two processes are often quite different. Hydraulic rams spend much of their time retracted and therefore protected from the weather. Many hydraulic rams only have chrome plate which for a number of reasons is not ideal for forks. Forks should be nickel plated under the chrome to improve corrosion resistance and make flaking off less likely. Many cheap Chinese bikes omit this underplating and that is why their chrome rusts or pits so fast. Forks need an excellent finish to very close tolerance as they act as a bearing as well as needing to seal. Hydraulic rams can have much wider tolerance and rougher surface (although it still looks and feels smooth) Whether new or repaired is cheaper depends on the complexity of the machining on new tubes vs the amount of pitting on the old. I would be inclined to use a motorcycle fork specialist of long experience - web search will find a few. They will usually offer new tubes if appropriate as well as advise on lengthening etc.

Yes go on, have a good laugh. I am only too happy to see Doug win on a new lightweight bike, just as I am happy when Raga performs well on a GG. Remember the SSDT used to be somewhat longer in the days of heavy bikes with points ignition. My argument against complex, lightweight bikes is based on their higher initial cost, lack of longevity and higher and more frequent repair costs in the hands of lesser riders. The real test of the Vertigo will be when it gets to 2, 3 or 4 years old. If its reliable and spares prices are reasonable depreciation will be acceptable. If they are unreliable with expensive parts residual values will be low and new bike sales will be less as a result. To illustrate the point I will refer to a slightly different sport. I attended a 2 day cycle event recently, a mix of on and off road. Most of the bikes in the top group had 27 gears (3 x 9). More than 50% of this top group had trouble with damaged or jammed gear change mechanisms, One retired and several were left stuck in a single gear or with only a few gears available. Despite the great number of gears (initially available) all riders still had to push or carry the bikes up the steeper off road hills. Had all the bikes been single speed, fixed gear they would have been far more reliable and cheaper with no overall detriment to the enjoyment of the event.

My advice is not RT specific, it is just the first things I would look at on an EFI car with these symptoms. Check any fuel filters and fuel pump delivery pressure Check for water or dirt in fuel It could be the potentiometer track on the throttle position sensor. This is incorporated within the throttle body on the 4RT. Suggest you borrow a known good throttle body or have yours checked out by someone with Honda EFI diagnostics kit. I do knot know if the potentiometer outputs are accessible for checking with an oscilloscope or meter.

Only very infrequently. If you make your location known someone will probably be able to advise where you can get a test ride. Every dealer I ever bought a bike from was quite happy to give me a test ride.

Don't gravel your drive! I have 2 friends who have done it as it was cheaper and quicker than alternatives at the time. They now wish they had not. Its easy to loose nuts and other small bits in and it makes dust that walks into the house. It will also eventually clog with blown dirt, decaying leaves etc. Take the time and expense to block pave it

Most trials engines are already pretty well near the limits of lightness as the GasGas Pro engines frailty all to well demonstrates. Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki, KTM and others all have 250 4T MX engines producing about 40 HP. Close variants of these engines are used in Enduro, trail and road racing. However in being robust enough for those higher HP ouputs these engines are too heavy for trials. If there were a properly enforced minimum weight set at an appropriate level these engines could be adapted for trials with only minimum modification. This may encourage these volume manufacturers into trials to the benefit of consumers. These manufactures (Honda / Mont excepted) are very unlikely to enter trials if they have to develop a special light engine for a low volume market. I have nothing against aluminium spindles and have never said that, however they do cost more than steel spindles and the combination of large diameter aluminium spindle and compact lightweight hub does result in accelerated wheel bearing wear.

Being run over by any bike is not good however some are less bad than others. The low heavy 4 strokes of the 50s, 60s and early 70s used to inflict some pretty horrific injuries an anyone they ran over. The lighter 2 stokes of the 80s and 90s with bulbous expansion chambers often ran over fallen riders without inflicting injury. Your mates RMZ may have a smooth sump shield but without the expansion chamber to hold the rider down his body or part thereof is more likely to hit higher up at the front of the engine where it is narrow and the impact force will be concentrated on a small area. The front engine / frame area on most recent MX bikes is pretty aggressively shaped. All other things being equal, being hit by a heavier bike is going to be worse than a light bike. However when it comes to trials the greater capability of a lighter trials bike means more hazardous obstacles are needed to take marks and hence when the rider fails the subsequent fall is likely to more severe. #10. Whenever I have set out a trial or had a hand in it riders are generally very complementary of the sections. I do appreciate that CoCs have a difficult job these days because of the range of ability, 3 route sections being the norm rather than the single route that sections used too be. The example of the sheep trod I quoted is just one of the instances of this I have seen. I have seen similar situations occur at trials ranging from nationals right down to easy club trials. When I started trials nearly all sections were in gullies, so even if you failed a big step you just jumped off the back or toppled to one side. A far higher % of the sections in some trials today are inclined to "perch" riders on top of obstacles with a big fall off the side if things go wrong. I have no qualms about riding a 4 ft step in a gulley, but if the section required me to go over slippery a 4 ft boulder with nowhere to foot I would not attempt it. Quite a few riders I know including trial winners take the same view.