baldilocks Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 Two things stand out reading this thread 1 We should have a single set of rules I think, and i dont mind being corrected, that under the old no stop rules the sump on a rock with the engine stalled has to be a five as regardless of the stall the bike will have stopped. Generally the stall was deemed as a five as the bike would stop. Under old stop allowed rules it actually isnt a five. In those days there was one set of rules for all events and heres two examples I can remember. Woody Hole during the ssdt one year had the chain come off. The bike was wedged / balanced anyway and he managed to refit the chain without touching the ground and rode off, he didnt get a five. Other examples of repairs include Donato Miglio refitting the throttle cable which had come out of the domino twistgrip housing during a world round, again it wasnt a five. Both examples are ludicrous in my view, but balancing on a rock with the sump wasnt a five as far as I know. under the FIM every stop is a one rules a stall is a five, the rules also mention taking your hand off the handlebar is a five. The problem with all this is that riders and observers probably don t read the rules so just as Ive done here examples of good and bad observing get interpreted as being the rules. Now at this hypothetical club trial we are discussing what set of rules are being applied ?? 2 Observers and riders need to accept that both parties can make an error, we cannot all be right all of the time. Riders also need to be aware that however difficult the observer may seem to you he / she is still the observer. No Observer No Trials ! As Eiger implied observers need to be treated with respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phb Posted October 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Two things stand out reading this thread1 We should have a single set of rules 2 Observers and riders need to accept that both parties can make an error, we cannot all be right all of the time. Riders also need to be aware that however difficult the observer may seem to you he / she is still the observer. No Observer No Trials ! As Eiger implied observers need to be treated with respect. I certainly agree with both points there 1 set of rules for all levels of trials would make it much easier on the observer and rider and point 2 goes without saying. my original post on sumping out was just an example because it has amazed me how many observers and riders were not aware that it is a '5' at any level of competion, there are lots of other examples where you can get a '5' or even what you think is a '5' which is actually not penalised, i was very surprised when i watched a DVD from the FIM of examples of different scenarios and the correct scores to be given. if i can find the disc again i will see if i can get it posted on the forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabie Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 this is the most difficult and challenging issues out there for trials as a sport fundamentally, we're all not overrun with observers so lets all back them up. as the various examples above show, riders being rude, etc undermining observers who aren't always in the prime of life is deeply worrying. my club normally runs the first round of the centre championships (for like decades), but we've decided for 2008 not to put it down as a championship round because its so hard to get observers as does that would do it are confused by what TSR 22 A is. they are confused by the various rule changes over the years and its extremely challenging for us to explain to 18/20 observers exactly what TSR22A means. in some ways they are all happy with TSR22B as that what they've done for donkeys years (even when they should be doing TSR22A). I'm stupid enough to have an idea in my head exactly what i think TSR22A is and how that will apply in my section, and i tell the top experts what i expect before they go off bunny hopping and stopping to much. i really don't know what the answer is to this problem. there are two camps of riders both firmly committed to their set of rules (TSR22A and TSR22B) plus some advocating others (gate choice thingy, FIM, etc), but even then i really don't know how to convey to the typical observer the rules when normally at a trial the organiser hasn't really got the time to communicate with the observers at lenght Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john collins Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 (edited) Every now and again we return to this topic - and probably always will. I do not intend to make long drawn out comments ( that's a change!) However - please can we look sensibly and constructively at the common request for just " One set of rules" As an experiment - and without explanation / debate/ opinions - for surely we have done all that - let us start form the premise that " One set of rules would be best" These then would be A) TSR22 A - No Stop TSR 22 B - Stop Permitted C) FIM - As per Brit Adult Champ. If you wish to take part in ths experiment - just post one of the above sentances - no more - and let us just see what one set of rules actually comes up with- then we can take it from there - so just humour me and post one of the above only Edited October 15, 2007 by John Collins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 A) TSR22 A - No Stop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordi Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 A) TSR22 A - No Stop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 A) TSR22 A - No Stop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabber Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 A) TSR22 A - No Stop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eiger Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 A) TSR22 A - No Stop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ishy Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 A) TSR22 A - No Stop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorpa3 Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 TSR22A No-stop (Hang on a minute, sorry but isn't TSR22A actually - Stop permitted in the hand book?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perce Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 TSR22A No-stop (Hang on a minute, sorry but isn't TSR22A actually - Stop permitted in the hand book?) Funny that but I've just got Northallerton's Bilsdale Trial Regs today & they state 'tsr22b - NO STOP' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idmcc_sec Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 These then would beA) TSR22 A - No Stop TSR 22 B - Stop Permitted C) FIM - As per Brit Adult Champ. Ermm........yes John, you've got them the wrong way round RTFB So it's TSR22B - No Stop......................which everyone seems to be going for. We've used TSR22B for a few years now in Scotland and saves a lot of confusion. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telecat Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 The Problem is that all club riders want no-stop. All National riders want FIM. So we still end up with two sets of rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john collins Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Oh - Bloody hell. If ever there was a case for saying things were confusing - Ive just gone and inadvertently made it! What I should have typed : A) TSR 22 A - Stop Permitted TSR 22 B - No - Stop - eg Sammy Miller, Classic , Scottish and others c) FIM - as Per Brit Champ. I think we can assume that everyone who has already posted - meant No-Stop - 22B - as they thankfully also said this as well as my wromg numbers. I make it so far a concensus for TSR 22B - No Stop Sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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